Episode 46

full
Published on:

20th Feb 2024

Jenny Magic | Leading Through Change: Overcoming Resistance and Change Fatigue

Welcome to "The Last 10%," where your host, Dallas Burnett, opens up the challenging world of change in the workplace. In this episode, we have Jenny Magic, a leading voice in understanding how changes affect employees and organizations. Dallas and Jenny unpack the concept of change fatigue, delve into the importance of psychological safety, and share strategies for managing the overwhelming demands change can bring.

Find out the WRONG questions leaders ask as they relate to change and psychological safety and how to ask the RIGHT questions. They explore the importance of leaders recognizing employees' emotions and prioritizing projects to prevent burnout. Dallas and Jenny guide us through understanding how individuals and companies can adapt to change without losing their drive or well-being.

So tune in to this powerful episode of "The Last 10%" for a deep dive into modern change management challenges. Dallas Burnett and Jenny Magic provide insights and resources for navigating change with optimism and effectiveness. Don't miss out on their valuable lessons in the latest episode.

Amy Edmondson Survey - www.fearlessorganization.com

Connect with Jenny Magic and Discover Change Fatigue: https://changefatigue.com/

Mentioned in this episode:

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Transcript
Dallas Burnett:

Hey, everybody.

Dallas Burnett:

We're talking to Jenny Magic today.

Dallas Burnett:

What an amazing woman.

Dallas Burnett:

She helps leaders say no to unworkable work.

Dallas Burnett:

What in the world is that?

Dallas Burnett:

We're gonna get into that, and she has some incredible stories about

Dallas Burnett:

how to successfully navigate change.

Dallas Burnett:

She's a great new friend of mine.

Dallas Burnett:

You don't want to miss this incredible conversation.

Dallas Burnett:

Welcome, welcome, welcome.

Dallas Burnett:

I am Dallas Burnett, sitting in my 1905 Coke Brothers

Dallas Burnett:

Barber chair in Thrive Studios.

Dallas Burnett:

But more importantly, today we have a great guest.

Dallas Burnett:

She is an author of a book called Change Fatigue.

Dallas Burnett:

So speaker, an expert in tech adoption and employee engagement.

Dallas Burnett:

Real excited.

Dallas Burnett:

Welcome to the show, Jenny.

Jenny Magic:

I'm so happy to be here.

Dallas Burnett:

Well, let's just jump right in because I am, the title of

Dallas Burnett:

your book really was intriguing to me because I feel like it sums up how

Dallas Burnett:

a lot of people in our culture and at work feel today change fatigue.

Dallas Burnett:

So tell us how you define that term, change, fatigue and what

Dallas Burnett:

inspired you to write the book.

Jenny Magic:

Absolutely.

Jenny Magic:

So I have been a marketing strategist for almost 20 years and realized over the last

Jenny Magic:

five or so in and around the pandemic and coming out of it, we were seeing a lot of.

Jenny Magic:

Of those strategies just stall out.

Jenny Magic:

A lot of organizations are having a really hard time encouraging

Jenny Magic:

their employees to get on board with whatever the new idea is.

Jenny Magic:

And so in that time period, I really wanted to shift my focus and give leaders

Jenny Magic:

a handbook for how to get their employees more excited about whatever it is that the

Jenny Magic:

organization is trying to move forward.

Jenny Magic:

And in that work, trying to uncover what's going on, it became really clear

Jenny Magic:

that we are in a very unique moment.

Jenny Magic:

We have a lot of pushback from employees.

Jenny Magic:

There's a lot of burnout.

Jenny Magic:

Morale is low.

Jenny Magic:

Employee engagement.

Jenny Magic:

Surveys are coming back.

Jenny Magic:

it was pretty, Dramatically lower marks than before, and leaders are really trying

Jenny Magic:

to figure out what to do about that.

Jenny Magic:

So this was our answer.

Jenny Magic:

My co-author, Melissa Brecker and I come from, change management and

Jenny Magic:

strategy backgrounds, really trying to give, non-professional change

Jenny Magic:

management people a skill set that they can take into their everyday work.

Dallas Burnett:

Oh, I like that.

Dallas Burnett:

Oh, I like that a lot.

Dallas Burnett:

I.

Dallas Burnett:

I do.

Dallas Burnett:

I do think that when you get down to the root of it, like when you talk about

Dallas Burnett:

employee engagement and how those numbers are lower today, I agree with that and I

Dallas Burnett:

think there's a lot of different reasons why, but I think that so many business

Dallas Burnett:

leaders and business owners and coaches.

Dallas Burnett:

Overlook that the value of engagement and all the ripple benefits that

Dallas Burnett:

come with employee engagement.

Dallas Burnett:

So it's really cool that you're unpacking it from the change fatigue.

Dallas Burnett:

So let's talk about if I'm experiencing as a leader change

Dallas Burnett:

fatigue, what does that look like?

Dallas Burnett:

how does that look if I'm going through, if I'm in an organization and I'm

Dallas Burnett:

experiencing this, is there some signs or some symptoms or are there some things

Dallas Burnett:

that just will create change fatigue?

Dallas Burnett:

Tell us a little bit about that.

Jenny Magic:

Absolutely.

Jenny Magic:

So it can look different in different organizations.

Jenny Magic:

It's dependent on your culture.

Jenny Magic:

In some organizations, we're seeing leaders really face active and vocal

Jenny Magic:

resistance to change, initiative.

Jenny Magic:

So you're, they're hearing like.

Jenny Magic:

Why are we doing this?

Jenny Magic:

I think the way we've always done it is fine.

Jenny Magic:

What, tell me more.

Jenny Magic:

Or pushing back, but more often and more common, and especially in white

Jenny Magic:

collar work knowledge work where the work is happening in between our ears

Jenny Magic:

as opposed to pumping out widgets.

Jenny Magic:

The way that the response is, the way that change fatigue

Jenny Magic:

manifests is just in a slow.

Jenny Magic:

Resistance, quiet, pushback, sandbagging, I like to call it.

Jenny Magic:

So the employee may say great, that seems like a great idea.

Jenny Magic:

I'll get right on that boss.

Jenny Magic:

But then, the kickoff meeting is delayed because of someone's travel plans.

Jenny Magic:

And then the next steps require, and before you know it, there's

Jenny Magic:

a lot of plausible deniability, but nothing's really happened

Jenny Magic:

to move that initiative forward.

Jenny Magic:

And that's where I get called in a lot.

Jenny Magic:

Leaders are frustrated.

Jenny Magic:

They said everyone's smiling and saying the right stuff, but nothing is happening.

Jenny Magic:

What is going on?

Jenny Magic:

And that's where we uncover a lot of change.

Dallas Burnett:

that that buy-in's not there.

Dallas Burnett:

You can just tell it.

Dallas Burnett:

It's just not

Dallas Burnett:

there.

Dallas Burnett:

And it's so funny.

Dallas Burnett:

I love how you described that.

Dallas Burnett:

It's, there's a lot of.

Dallas Burnett:

There's a lot of plausible excuses that, oh, I couldn't do this,

Dallas Burnett:

or I'm traveling, but there's no

Dallas Burnett:

energy behind it, there's no movement.

Dallas Burnett:

, there's nobody that picks that torch up.

Dallas Burnett:

like the Olympics coming up.

Dallas Burnett:

Nobody takes it up and runs with it.

Dallas Burnett:

It just dies right there.

Dallas Burnett:

It just fizzles out.

Dallas Burnett:

And I'm sure a lot of leaders have experienced that.

Dallas Burnett:

So that's, again, I think that's why, the title change fatigue is just really, I.

Dallas Burnett:

Captures some people.

Dallas Burnett:

'cause it definitely, resonates in that way.

Dallas Burnett:

so if I'm leading a team do you have any examples where you've worked with people?

Dallas Burnett:

Oh, I'll tell you what, I'll share one of mine first.

Dallas Burnett:

I'll go first.

Dallas Burnett:

We've had, we have a coaching system that we install to help, leaders increase

Dallas Burnett:

their engagement with team members.

Dallas Burnett:

So they're going through this kind of coaching system.

Dallas Burnett:

They have a scaffolding system for them to go through.

Dallas Burnett:

And you sometimes, inevitably we go into companies and it's

Dallas Burnett:

exactly like what you just said.

Dallas Burnett:

We'll have 30% of the people.

Dallas Burnett:

Are just completely pushing back.

Dallas Burnett:

I don't know, this thing's it just, they just, whatever reason it lands on 'em.

Dallas Burnett:

And it's you've got 30% of the people that's yes, this is what

Dallas Burnett:

I've waited for all my life.

Dallas Burnett:

Yes, we get it.

Dallas Burnett:

And then you've got the middle ground.

Dallas Burnett:

And I feel like that's where the battle is.

Dallas Burnett:

and even some of obviously the ones that are pushing back.

Dallas Burnett:

So if I'm going in, how would you coach an organization like that?

Dallas Burnett:

How, what, as a leader, if I'm leading that team, what are some

Dallas Burnett:

of the things that I can do to navigate that difficult situation?

Jenny Magic:

Absolutely.

Jenny Magic:

So I think the first thing leaders need to do is put on a mindset that understands

Jenny Magic:

that resistance is a natural human reaction to a change in the status quo.

Jenny Magic:

So I think a lot of leaders, when they encounter any resistance, they I don't

Jenny Magic:

wanna say they take it personally, but they take it as an actual commentary

Jenny Magic:

on the change when it's, in fact, it's actually just a commentary on any change.

Jenny Magic:

So you're gonna have a natural response that you're gonna need to sit with,

Jenny Magic:

let it be okay, validate, but not take it as a, deterrent to moving

Jenny Magic:

the project forward if, especially if it's an essential project.

Jenny Magic:

I think the other key thing is really making sure you're

Jenny Magic:

solving the right problem.

Jenny Magic:

So a lot of the times when I see an initiative face the kind of resistance

Jenny Magic:

and, and encounter the change fatigue that we're talking about,

Jenny Magic:

have a hard time building buy-in.

Jenny Magic:

It's because the people on the ground don't fully believe that this problem

Jenny Magic:

needs solving or that it needs solving.

Jenny Magic:

Now they may perceive this as a problem that only impacts management, and

Jenny Magic:

therefore I'm being asked to do a bunch of work to make someone else's job easier.

Jenny Magic:

they may perceive the benefit as not being worth the urgency for the problem.

Jenny Magic:

there's lots of ways that we can unpack that, but I think the most

Jenny Magic:

important thing you can do to make sure that people understand.

Jenny Magic:

You're solving the right problem is have what we call in the

Jenny Magic:

book confidential inquiry.

Jenny Magic:

This is just a, a cone of silence conversation.

Jenny Magic:

I imagine that, the Maxwell smart get smart cone where it comes down

Jenny Magic:

and descends over the dialogue.

Jenny Magic:

In some organizations, this can't be with their manager or their boss.

Jenny Magic:

It needs to be like with an outside person that they trust, but basically

Jenny Magic:

being able to hear authentic feedback when someone says, look, I know you're

Jenny Magic:

telling me that we need to do this, but I'm telling you that we've tried this

Jenny Magic:

five times in the last 15 years that I've been here and it's flopped every

Jenny Magic:

time and I don't see what's different.

Jenny Magic:

Or every single time we try to do something like this, they won't put the

Jenny Magic:

budget behind it At the very last minute.

Jenny Magic:

or.

Jenny Magic:

Right.

Jenny Magic:

There's.

Jenny Magic:

Beliefs and expectations that are going to color how they receive a change.

Jenny Magic:

And so to the extent that you're able to, allow them to voice that and be heard

Jenny Magic:

and validated and say, we hear you, but this time is different, and here's why.

Jenny Magic:

That's a huge first step to make sure everyone agrees this problem needs

Jenny Magic:

solving and it needs solving now.

Jenny Magic:

And this solution that we're gonna pursue is something that, that

Jenny Magic:

you should at least show up for as opposed to dismissing and resisting.

Dallas Burnett:

I love that idea of confidential inquiry.

Dallas Burnett:

I think that's really cool and I think that what you're going for.

Dallas Burnett:

is whatever it takes to get that team member that you're leading.

Dallas Burnett:

To be honest, that's really what we're talking about is we're going, when

Dallas Burnett:

we say confidential, it's however, I need to pull you out of this

Dallas Burnett:

situation where you need, you can talk.

Dallas Burnett:

It's not gonna be in a room of 30 people where nobody raises their

Dallas Burnett:

hand and everybody's yeah, I got it.

Dallas Burnett:

And walks out the door.

Dallas Burnett:

You're taking 'em off to the side.

Dallas Burnett:

It may not even be to the manager, but you're getting, somehow you have

Dallas Burnett:

got to cut through the static and get to the real heart of what that

Dallas Burnett:

employee is thinking because then.

Dallas Burnett:

you can start addressing movement.

Dallas Burnett:

I also love how you talked about, giving them a chance to voice their beliefs.

Dallas Burnett:

we have a saying, we call it.

Dallas Burnett:

for our coaches that we are training in the system.

Dallas Burnett:

We call, we say one of their, one of their jobs is to battle for belief.

Dallas Burnett:

You battle for that belief and I like it because you're

Dallas Burnett:

describing the same situation.

Dallas Burnett:

We're gonna pull you out into normal environment if we need to

Dallas Burnett:

put you with a separate person.

Dallas Burnett:

We are going to find out a, what you believe first to battle for belief.

Dallas Burnett:

You know what you're gonna, what you believe.

Dallas Burnett:

And then the second thing is we're gonna validate your belief

Dallas Burnett:

by at least addressing it.

Dallas Burnett:

It may not be that we share the belief.

Dallas Burnett:

You may say, well, we've never put the budget behind it and we're, we

Dallas Burnett:

know because of all of our strategy meetings, we've just allocated

Dallas Burnett:

like 10 times the amount of budget that we've ever allocated to it.

Dallas Burnett:

Right?

Dallas Burnett:

You may not know that.

Dallas Burnett:

So now just by saying, I hear what you're saying, I validate that belief.

Dallas Burnett:

You're right.

Dallas Burnett:

We haven't put the budget behind it and then coming back with some kind of a

Dallas Burnett:

solution or response that addresses it.

Dallas Burnett:

I think it not only.

Dallas Burnett:

I think it not only validates their belief, but it also would increase

Dallas Burnett:

trust because you've actually acted on something that you've heard.

Dallas Burnett:

So just sitting there and listening and then taking that feedback and giving,

Dallas Burnett:

have you seen that to be the case?

Jenny Magic:

Absolutely, and I think goodwill and trust and engagement

Jenny Magic:

are what a lot of employee employer relationships have been built on in the

Jenny Magic:

past, and we've really seen that damaged in a lot of the ways that things were

Jenny Magic:

handled as we like went remote, came back hybrid, everybody's trying to figure

Jenny Magic:

out how to work in this new environment.

Jenny Magic:

I think there is a gap in inherent trust and so anything leaders can do to.

Jenny Magic:

Be a little bit vulnerable and that vulnerability might be as simple

Jenny Magic:

as, you're right, we didn't put the budget behind it last time.

Jenny Magic:

Just admitting the realities that everyone knows.

Jenny Magic:

A lot of organizations have a really hard time with anything

Jenny Magic:

other than perfect press, right?

Jenny Magic:

They don't wanna say anything in any meeting to any employee that

Jenny Magic:

might say, yeah, we were wrong.

Jenny Magic:

we didn't do it perfectly last time.

Jenny Magic:

and that is a, an opportunity for leaders that are willing to go there.

Jenny Magic:

And it is.

Jenny Magic:

A huge fast-forward button towards that trust if you can let your

Jenny Magic:

employees be on the same team.

Jenny Magic:

I like to talk about being on the same side of the table.

Jenny Magic:

We all know what it's like when you go in and ask for a raise.

Jenny Magic:

you're on one side and they're on the other and there's a

Jenny Magic:

negotiation happening, right?

Jenny Magic:

but true teams sit on the same side of the table.

Jenny Magic:

they look at the paper from the same direction and they work together.

Jenny Magic:

a lot of change right now is being handled across the table.

Jenny Magic:

The leader slides the.

Jenny Magic:

Change across and the employee accepts it or pushes to the extent that we can

Jenny Magic:

get on the same side of the table, we can really start to see that buy-in

Jenny Magic:

come naturally and authentically.

Jenny Magic:

But it takes a leader stepping away from their position of power coming

Jenny Magic:

around to the side of the table, sitting down with their team and truly talking

Jenny Magic:

about what it is we're trying to do.

Dallas Burnett:

one of the ways that we, the mindset I feel like

Dallas Burnett:

leaders have is the one that they've been brought up in and trained in.

Dallas Burnett:

And this, it's a win, a lose situation like my.

Dallas Burnett:

Job as a leader is to make this budget or make this, if I'm

Dallas Burnett:

owning the company is to get this.

Dallas Burnett:

And if I can get you to work for your job as little as I can, and

Dallas Burnett:

then you're on the other side getting to, get as most as you can from me.

Dallas Burnett:

And it's just this adversarial, just like you said across the table,

Dallas Burnett:

what I've seen it, you can flip that on its head, like you said,

Dallas Burnett:

come to the same tie of the table.

Dallas Burnett:

And what I see there is the leader or the owner saying, I absolutely want.

Dallas Burnett:

You to make more, because if you are, you're contributing more.

Dallas Burnett:

you're giving more, you have more resources that you're giving, you have

Dallas Burnett:

more expertise that you're giving.

Dallas Burnett:

you're creating more on the team.

Dallas Burnett:

And therefore, if you're contributing more, I'm overjoyed to pay you more.

Dallas Burnett:

I'm overjoyed.

Dallas Burnett:

Our production's going up, our performance is going up.

Dallas Burnett:

Why can't I?

Dallas Burnett:

It's a win-win in that situation.

Dallas Burnett:

But it's sometimes I think hard because again, going back to.

Dallas Burnett:

understanding what the employee believes we're addressing some of those issues.

Dallas Burnett:

we're having to be transparent.

Dallas Burnett:

we may have to be more transparent than we've been in the past

Dallas Burnett:

about, the numbers and whatnot.

Dallas Burnett:

also, are we willing to do the work to go see what that position is being

Dallas Burnett:

compensated outside of our organization and so that we can be fair and know

Dallas Burnett:

that we're doing, and then really be clear about those jobs and expectations.

Dallas Burnett:

And I think that if you are willing to do the work, you're willing

Dallas Burnett:

to do the work on the front side.

Dallas Burnett:

You can sit on the same side of the table and you can be

Dallas Burnett:

there, you can cheer for them.

Dallas Burnett:

Which again, I think goes to your point of, in being in an environment now

Dallas Burnett:

where trust is not, it's lacking and it's an absolute competitive advantage

Dallas Burnett:

if you can instill it and grow it.

Dallas Burnett:

And Yeah,

Dallas Burnett:

I love that.

Dallas Burnett:

I love

Jenny Magic:

we're asking our employees to show up for the company, but we

Jenny Magic:

have to show up for them, right?

Jenny Magic:

there's that balance and that's really, I think when, if you can get there and

Jenny Magic:

change projects, often present a really nice opportunity to leave the status

Jenny Magic:

quo and do a little project differently than you've done something before.

Jenny Magic:

It can be a, an experiment in a reset.

Dallas Burnett:

I love that.

Dallas Burnett:

I love that.

Dallas Burnett:

That's really good.

Dallas Burnett:

That's very good stuff.

Dallas Burnett:

let's talk a little bit about, if you've been in, what's one of the most, I would

Dallas Burnett:

say, what's, is there any particular change that you found and I don't know

Dallas Burnett:

that, is there any particular change or organizational change in your.

Dallas Burnett:

experience that seems to be more difficult to navigate than other types of changes.

Dallas Burnett:

all change is hard, but is there any that you've experienced on the co, on

Dallas Burnett:

the organizational or the team level that seem to really be difficult Mo the most

Dallas Burnett:

difficult for team members to navigate?

Dallas Burnett:

I.

Jenny Magic:

I do.

Jenny Magic:

I think there's a category of work that, doesn't often get the same level of

Jenny Magic:

scrutiny that often runs into to trouble.

Jenny Magic:

I like to call this unworkable work.

Jenny Magic:

unworkable work is work that is either not necessary or not achievable.

Jenny Magic:

I.

Jenny Magic:

In this moment.

Jenny Magic:

And, what I mean by that or the category of work that this fits

Jenny Magic:

is often, internal improvement projects or, optimization projects.

Jenny Magic:

So this is we've always used Excel to keep track of our sales leads,

Jenny Magic:

but we need to shift to a CRM.

Jenny Magic:

We've always used, this process to approve content out on the marketing team.

Jenny Magic:

We wanna up that and put system, process reorg efficient.

Jenny Magic:

Optional process and technology changes that are intended to improve things

Jenny Magic:

over the long term, but may be really hard for people to understand and can be

Jenny Magic:

very disruptive in a way that I think a lot of leaders don't fully account for.

Jenny Magic:

How disruptive it is to not only stop doing work in one system or process

Jenny Magic:

and start doing it in a different system or process, but learn a

Jenny Magic:

new tool or process and make the mental shift to do things a new way.

Jenny Magic:

All while keeping the existing plate spinning and the existing

Jenny Magic:

work going out the door.

Jenny Magic:

So I think that the challenge, most often shows up for these kind of

Jenny Magic:

optional things where the employees are like, that is a ton of disruption.

Jenny Magic:

The benefit won't show up for 18 months, and you're expecting

Jenny Magic:

me to do that in budget season.

Jenny Magic:

what the heck?

Jenny Magic:

No thank you.

Jenny Magic:

I don't want anything to do with that.

Dallas Burnett:

I'm laughing because I've experienced this personally.

Dallas Burnett:

We rolled out a system, in an organization.

Dallas Burnett:

It was an it custom build, and it was, it was just transformational in the

Dallas Burnett:

sense that it was allowing all this different information to be, talk across.

Dallas Burnett:

But it's exactly what you said it was.

Dallas Burnett:

Unbelievably painful for the first six months.

Dallas Burnett:

I mean, just to the point where some people were like, we're not doing

Dallas Burnett:

this, you know, and it's like, no, you

Dallas Burnett:

have to phase over.

Dallas Burnett:

But it's going through a busy season and they're already stressed 'cause their

Dallas Burnett:

workloads high and then we're launching this new thing and they're supposed to

Dallas Burnett:

keep doing these projects that, that was already in the old way, this way.

Dallas Burnett:

But there are any new projects coming in there.

Dallas Burnett:

And man, it was.

Dallas Burnett:

It was brutal.

Dallas Burnett:

I have so much respect for the team because they grinded through it.

Dallas Burnett:

And we had to do a lot of what you're talking about these, con confidential

Dallas Burnett:

inquiries, pulling people aside, Hey, you know, where are you at?

Dallas Burnett:

. But then you, once you get through that and you get to the

Dallas Burnett:

other side, a year later, it was.

Dallas Burnett:

Right before Covid, and had they not done that before Covid, I

Dallas Burnett:

don't know what would've happened.

Dallas Burnett:

So they were very appreciative at the end, but man,

Dallas Burnett:

that was, I was awful.

Dallas Burnett:

It was awful, it was

Dallas Burnett:

hard.

Dallas Burnett:

So, yeah.

Jenny Magic:

A recent Gartner study said that the average employee

Jenny Magic:

faced 10 of those planned enterprise changes in 2022, up from two in 2016.

Jenny Magic:

So that is a 10 times increase in eight years.

Jenny Magic:

I think two things are true.

Jenny Magic:

You can do it the way your team did it, but know that you don't get very

Jenny Magic:

many of the, I call 'em change tokens.

Jenny Magic:

You don't get very many change tokens to ask your people to

Jenny Magic:

go through that kind of hell.

Jenny Magic:

You

Dallas Burnett:

That's true.

Dallas Burnett:

That's true.

Jenny Magic:

So you either need to slow the number of things you're asking.

Jenny Magic:

You can do that, once every few years and ask people to just suck it up and have

Jenny Magic:

the worst six months of their life or.

Jenny Magic:

You can compensate for the balance, you can figure out what work do they

Jenny Magic:

usually do that can get outsourced or paused or what can we take off their

Jenny Magic:

plate that is not absolutely, if this project has to be absolutely essential,

Jenny Magic:

what is it that only they can do?

Jenny Magic:

And can I hire?

Jenny Magic:

Part-time support.

Jenny Magic:

Can I pause?

Jenny Magic:

standard reporting things that don't change our day-to-day.

Jenny Magic:

what can we pause or take off their plate in order to make room for this

Jenny Magic:

awful thing that we're asking them to do?

Jenny Magic:

So reduce the amount of change, reduce the workload so that they can

Jenny Magic:

focus on change and or do whatever you can to smooth the rest of the

Jenny Magic:

ecosystem to make this more palatable.

Jenny Magic:

Right?

Dallas Burnett:

I love that approach because again, you're just being

Dallas Burnett:

very intentional and I think as.

Dallas Burnett:

as leaders in an organization or leaders on a team, if you do ask the

Dallas Burnett:

change, I, yeah, we totally finished that and we just, were like, we're not

Dallas Burnett:

doing nothing for this period of time because we just need everything to

Dallas Burnett:

normalize and everybody to be like, oh,

Dallas Burnett:

and I, and that.

Dallas Burnett:

It literally, you could feel it, you could feel the need for that.

Dallas Burnett:

Organizationally, I think one of the things that you have to do on the

Dallas Burnett:

front side, just what you said, you have to pay attention because you have

Dallas Burnett:

to do one of those, one of the two.

Dallas Burnett:

You have to either say, I'm going to make these things easier.

Dallas Burnett:

For everybody at work.

Dallas Burnett:

By, what can I do?

Dallas Burnett:

Pull things off.

Dallas Burnett:

or share load or pull people in.

Dallas Burnett:

Or add extra consultants or whatever it is.

Dallas Burnett:

Or do what you just said.

Dallas Burnett:

Which, just, you can only make so many asks.

Dallas Burnett:

I was speaking on burnout.

Dallas Burnett:

', and with a large financial, service organization who will remain nameless

Dallas Burnett:

at this point in time, but they were going through, if you're listening to

Dallas Burnett:

the last 10%, you know who you are.

Dallas Burnett:

But, they were going through and are currently going through this major system

Dallas Burnett:

rollout similar to what you just said.

Dallas Burnett:

I was on this Zoom type call and was, but was talking about burnout

Dallas Burnett:

and we got to the end and there were so many people that were.

Dallas Burnett:

literally emotional.

Dallas Burnett:

And why don't I just absolutely bawl in on the phone.

Dallas Burnett:

Because they're changing the system and you go, you from the outside,

Dallas Burnett:

you're like from the outside.

Dallas Burnett:

It's just really easy.

Dallas Burnett:

And especially for leaders, if you're disconnected, it really is a bad thing

Dallas Burnett:

because you're, if you're not in it and you're not experiencing that same level

Dallas Burnett:

of change, you might take a look at that and say, what is she so upset about?

Dallas Burnett:

what is her problem?

Dallas Burnett:

Did you hear her getting all emotional?

Dallas Burnett:

Just 'cause we're changing the computer system And yet for her.

Dallas Burnett:

It's her daily.

Dallas Burnett:

It's like what she, when she walks into work and that morning at eight

Dallas Burnett:

o'clock, she logs into that system and then she works in it all day.

Dallas Burnett:

And so her day just went from normal to Absolutely, a mess every day for,

Dallas Burnett:

and that is, if you get it right, you might get through it and so many months.

Dallas Burnett:

Right.

Dallas Burnett:

So it's just, it's so true.

Dallas Burnett:

I think what you're saying is exactly.

Dallas Burnett:

It's on point.

Dallas Burnett:

And I think that, what's some of the dangers like, 'cause I see one

Dallas Burnett:

of the dangers is a leader being disconnected and seeing that person

Dallas Burnett:

and not having empathy for them because they only see the upside, Is there

Dallas Burnett:

other pitfalls that leaders tend to fall into as they go through these things?

Jenny Magic:

I just wanna say one thing about that one though, in particular.

Jenny Magic:

I think one of the things that leaders really need to think about is the amount

Jenny Magic:

of, Privilege, I guess is the best word for it that they had through the pandemic.

Jenny Magic:

A lot of the leaders we work with are frustrated with how their employees are

Jenny Magic:

showing up for these change projects, but when we start talking about

Jenny Magic:

what their employees did to keep the company afloat during the difficult

Jenny Magic:

times that we've all been through.

Jenny Magic:

In a lot of cases, these employees faced complete uncertainty, not knowing

Jenny Magic:

if their job would exist, not knowing if the company would exist, and there

Jenny Magic:

was some extraordinary measures in terms of moving their life work-life

Jenny Magic:

balance around to survive the pandemic.

Jenny Magic:

the outcome was a lot of organizations, unless you were in hospitality and retail,

Jenny Magic:

a lot of, tech companies, financial companies like actually came out.

Jenny Magic:

On the positive on, the books looked good and, a lot of leaders were able to

Jenny Magic:

insulate themselves from some of the worst changes just because of where they sit in

Jenny Magic:

the organization and what their role is.

Jenny Magic:

I'm not saying it was easy to lead through a pandemic.

Jenny Magic:

There were some tough decisions, but I think in terms of the grind that you're

Jenny Magic:

describing, the pandemic was the grind for a lot of mid, mid-tier employees.

Jenny Magic:

So they are.

Jenny Magic:

They have been doing that for a period of years, and in a lot

Jenny Magic:

of cases we've gotten, 20, 23.

Jenny Magic:

Most of our executives said, great, now that's over, let's

Jenny Magic:

grind, let's change some things.

Jenny Magic:

And everybody went, what are you talking about?

Jenny Magic:

We need a break.

Jenny Magic:

We need a, we need that period of time where nothing changes.

Jenny Magic:

We need that.

Dallas Burnett:

Yes.

Jenny Magic:

If leaders don't understand that, that they were in that state

Jenny Magic:

and they need a pause before they can get back in that state, then it helps

Jenny Magic:

explain a little bit of some of this resistance that I think a lot of leaders

Jenny Magic:

are like, nobody, nobody wants to work.

Jenny Magic:

I'm getting all this resistance, quiet, quitting.

Jenny Magic:

It's well, yeah, we haven't given them a real pause and a thank you

Jenny Magic:

a validation for what happened.

Jenny Magic:

what we had to deal with.

Dallas Burnett:

It reminds me of this, we had a PGA golf coach on,

Dallas Burnett:

the show, a couple, I guess it was a couple years ago now, and he

Dallas Burnett:

made a comment a, about burnout.

Dallas Burnett:

And it was interesting 'cause he was associating it with physical workouts and

Dallas Burnett:

mental burnout, and these golf players.

Dallas Burnett:

And he says, stress.

Dallas Burnett:

And I was like, oh, that's like a misdemeanor.

Dallas Burnett:

You would think it would, I think stress Christmas.

Dallas Burnett:

He goes, no.

Dallas Burnett:

He goes, stress you, gets you going.

Dallas Burnett:

It, makes your sense, makes you more aware, makes you

Dallas Burnett:

actually pro, produce more.

Dallas Burnett:

But he said stress without recovery is what will give you burnout.

Dallas Burnett:

He said, if you go and work out and you're stressing your muscles,

Dallas Burnett:

that's what helps your muscles grow.

Dallas Burnett:

you push it and you get better, you get stronger, you get faster.

Dallas Burnett:

But if you don't recover.

Dallas Burnett:

That is when if you just go max out every day, well then you're gonna tear

Dallas Burnett:

your muscles and be a, a hot mess.

Dallas Burnett:

so I thought that was so true and it goes , along the lines of what we're saying.

Dallas Burnett:

I think it's easy because it, the whole covid thing, just.

Dallas Burnett:

It just wrecked everybody, in terms of just your personal life was all messed

Dallas Burnett:

up 'cause you couldn't go to the grocery store without certain things and your kids

Dallas Burnett:

were home from school if they normally went to school and you're trying to figure

Dallas Burnett:

that out and then your boss is calling you, are you coming into the office today?

Dallas Burnett:

Are you staying home today?

Dallas Burnett:

Who's got covid?

Dallas Burnett:

it was just a mess.

Dallas Burnett:

and so you come out of that and then but the in, in a lot of leaders' minds.

Dallas Burnett:

I do.

Dallas Burnett:

I think it would be easy to assume that.

Dallas Burnett:

Well, that was covid.

Dallas Burnett:

That's not our business, And it's eh, well, it kinda all goes together.

Dallas Burnett:

You know, if a lot of employees were having to do hybrid work or wanted to

Dallas Burnett:

do hybrid work or having to shift their whole work life around and doing all

Dallas Burnett:

these things differently, it is that change, even though it wasn't something

Dallas Burnett:

that we as leaders wanted or necessarily.

Dallas Burnett:

Thought we created still is the reality of the

Dallas Burnett:

situation.

Dallas Burnett:

So I think that's really good.

Dallas Burnett:

So if you're seeing in your organization, if you listen to the last 10%, if

Dallas Burnett:

you lead a team and or if you lead an organization, I think it's important

Dallas Burnett:

if you're seeing, if you're not seeing the engagement numbers that you want

Dallas Burnett:

or you're seeing your turnover levels increase, I think you need, one of

Dallas Burnett:

the questions you need to be asking yourself is how are you giving your team

Dallas Burnett:

members the opportunity to recover from?

Dallas Burnett:

The last couple years of a lot of change and are you thanking them?

Dallas Burnett:

Just like you said, are you recognizing them for the hard work

Dallas Burnett:

that they've put in, and doing that?

Dallas Burnett:

yeah.

Dallas Burnett:

That's really good.

Dallas Burnett:

I like that.

Dallas Burnett:

So let's talk a little bit about hybrid work, because it

Dallas Burnett:

is so much more prevalent now.

Dallas Burnett:

So many more teams are moving to that.

Dallas Burnett:

So

Dallas Burnett:

how about hybrid work strategies, what do you recommend or

Dallas Burnett:

what have you seen this work?

Dallas Burnett:

Good.

Dallas Burnett:

'cause we've gone through this change for

Dallas Burnett:

team cohesion and employee engagement in these hybrid teams.

Jenny Magic:

I think, what's interesting is that it's not so much hybrid that's

Jenny Magic:

causing the problem, it's just that we have to think differently about

Jenny Magic:

things that used to happen organically, because we know that relationships,

Jenny Magic:

in proximity are easier to build.

Jenny Magic:

And so when, if we're not in proximity, we're not building

Jenny Magic:

relationships, which just need means, we need to be a lot more thoughtful.

Jenny Magic:

our communication strategy.

Jenny Magic:

So one of the things I like to, challenge leaders to do is look at

Jenny Magic:

the concept of psychological safety.

Jenny Magic:

I don't know if you're familiar with that term, but

Jenny Magic:

Dr.

Jenny Magic:

Amy Edmondson has spent 20 years at Harvard figuring out what

Jenny Magic:

makes a great team, and Google did their own study in 2008.

Jenny Magic:

What makes a great team project?

Jenny Magic:

They're subtle.

Jenny Magic:

Same outcome, right?

Jenny Magic:

They basically have all come around this concept of psychological safety

Jenny Magic:

and what it boils down to is can my team tell the truth to each other?

Jenny Magic:

Can we be honest and navigate mistakes?

Jenny Magic:

do we have a great attitude towards risk and failure?

Jenny Magic:

Do we, are we on the same side of the table?

Jenny Magic:

Is there inclusion and willingness to help out?

Jenny Magic:

So there's a simple seven question free assessment and

Jenny Magic:

at Fearlessorganization.com, that's Amy Edmondson's website.

Jenny Magic:

That I think leaders need to look at because, the idea of building, for

Jenny Magic:

example, how do we make open conversation?

Jenny Magic:

That's the, this idea of confidential inquiry is built on open conversation.

Jenny Magic:

How do we get to a place where people can say the real thing openly?

Jenny Magic:

if your team has.

Jenny Magic:

Real has meeting conversations and then has side of the desk conversations

Jenny Magic:

where there's different storylines.

Jenny Magic:

Then you have some work to do.

Jenny Magic:

something like seventy-eight percent of leaders overestimate

Jenny Magic:

psychological safety in their team.

Jenny Magic:

And this is something you can have everyone take a

Jenny Magic:

survey and get a benchmark.

Jenny Magic:

You can see a number on a chart and see where you have opportunity to grow.

Jenny Magic:

And I think there's some real value in being thoughtful.

Jenny Magic:

How do we have.

Jenny Magic:

Open conversation when side of the, when someone when Jill to go to

Jenny Magic:

Jane's cubicle and have a little powwow about what we really think.

Dallas Burnett:

Yes.

Jenny Magic:

How's that happening now and was that healthy?

Jenny Magic:

And do we need to have opportunities where, we call a town hall and then we

Jenny Magic:

go break into breakout rooms of three and have what are you really thinking?

Jenny Magic:

Conversations.

Jenny Magic:

And then we come back and we read out and we talk about, what we really think

Jenny Magic:

about an idea because it is just so hard.

Jenny Magic:

In a real meeting, you twitch your finger and the boss goes,

Jenny Magic:

oh, Jenny has something to say.

Jenny Magic:

and it flows organically.

Jenny Magic:

That's super hard to monitor that kind of body language on Zoom.

Jenny Magic:

And so even just the simple things like really trying to focus on how

Jenny Magic:

do we become a team that says what we mean and can have honest feedback

Jenny Magic:

and authentic feedback, that's probably the most, The most essential

Jenny Magic:

one as it relates to hybrid work.

Jenny Magic:

but it's just something that used to happen organically and I think

Jenny Magic:

a lot of leaders say would be like, everyone just come back to

Jenny Magic:

the office, we'll make it work.

Jenny Magic:

But it's actually not hard to do this in a hybrid environment.

Jenny Magic:

It just has to be intentional.

Jenny Magic:

Right.

Dallas Burnett:

has to be intentional.

Dallas Burnett:

Yeah.

Dallas Burnett:

And I think that's so true.

Dallas Burnett:

it reminds me, it's like I, that totally makes sense.

Dallas Burnett:

When you said the 78% of leaders overestimate psychological safety

Dallas Burnett:

or the psychological safety levels in the organization, and here's why.

Dallas Burnett:

How would you know if it's not?

Dallas Burnett:

Because that's the thing that they're not talking to you.

Dallas Burnett:

Nobody's raising their hand going, I, I don't feel safe.

Dallas Burnett:

The reason is they don't feel safe, so why would they

Dallas Burnett:

raise their hand and tell you that?

Dallas Burnett:

You don't know, because nobody's gonna tell you.

Dallas Burnett:

And so I

Jenny Magic:

And leaders, by the definition, they are

Jenny Magic:

probably psychologically safe.

Jenny Magic:

They probably can speak their mind.

Jenny Magic:

They probably do feel included and that their point of view is heard.

Jenny Magic:

yeah, it's 'cause you're sitting in a spot on the org chart that, allows for that.

Jenny Magic:

And you have to be thoughtful about people that are not, I.

Dallas Burnett:

I think that the, to your point, I think it's, you

Dallas Burnett:

should be asking yourself, you're listening today and you're thinking

Dallas Burnett:

about, and you're leading a team.

Dallas Burnett:

If you're coaching a team, if you own an organization, you don't

Dallas Burnett:

need to be saying, well, do I, the wrong question in my mind is this.

Dallas Burnett:

The wrong question is what do I think the level of psychological

Dallas Burnett:

safety is in my organization?

Dallas Burnett:

Because as a leader.

Dallas Burnett:

You are absolutely hardwired to not get that right.

Dallas Burnett:

In fact, we know that most likely, whatever your number is, it's not right.

Dallas Burnett:

It's actually seventy-eight percent is over.

Dallas Burnett:

So I would say the better question is what are the ways that I can absolutely

Dallas Burnett:

point to that I am being intentional.

Dallas Burnett:

In creating that.

Dallas Burnett:

And let's look at the ways that we can create it and how, which

Dallas Burnett:

one, and if I can't point to some really specific things.

Dallas Burnett:

And one of them might be, getting anonymous feedback, like you said, finding

Dallas Burnett:

some type of confidential inquiry, whether that's in an assessment or an outside

Dallas Burnett:

person coming in, whatever that is.

Dallas Burnett:

But how are you doing these activities that's gonna generate

Dallas Burnett:

that and do the right things first.

Dallas Burnett:

So I think the wrong question is just, Seeing where the wind, oh yeah.

Dallas Burnett:

I think it feels good.

Dallas Burnett:

Yeah, it's good.

Dallas Burnett:

I think that's the wrong way, the right way is to really be intentional about

Dallas Burnett:

laying out specific ways in which you're helping promote that in the environment.

Dallas Burnett:

And I think that's where you win.

Dallas Burnett:

So I really like that.

Dallas Burnett:

I would like to go back because you dropped a couple terms that I want to.

Dallas Burnett:

I wanna unpack a little bit.

Dallas Burnett:

you talked about unworkable work and internal improvement, and then

Dallas Burnett:

you went right into the example.

Dallas Burnett:

And I wanna back up just a little bit and say we've talked about change fatigue.

Dallas Burnett:

And so what, how does that relate to the term that you used?

Dallas Burnett:

Unworkable work.

Dallas Burnett:

And then let's, and then how does that relate to internal improvement?

Jenny Magic:

Absolutely.

Jenny Magic:

So in unworkable work is just a phrase I use for a project

Jenny Magic:

we should have said no to.

Jenny Magic:

There's a lot on.

Jenny Magic:

The agenda and the, my definition is something that's either not necessary

Jenny Magic:

or not achievable in this moment.

Jenny Magic:

and of course those terms are subjective.

Jenny Magic:

Necessary according to who?

Jenny Magic:

Achievable, according to who.

Jenny Magic:

But I think what I'm really getting at is when the people who are gonna

Jenny Magic:

be impacted by that change, the people who are being asked to manage and

Jenny Magic:

implement that change, believe that it is not necessary or not achievable.

Jenny Magic:

It's unworkable, and there isn't any amount of prodding that you

Jenny Magic:

can do as a leader until you change their minds about those factors.

Jenny Magic:

Right.

Dallas Burnett:

mm.

Jenny Magic:

And so a lot of, a lot of projects get kicked off.

Jenny Magic:

And the reason I talked about internal improvement projects is,

Jenny Magic:

when we think about all the kinds of change an organization can bring

Jenny Magic:

forward, it can be, Hey, we're rolling out a new product or service.

Jenny Magic:

Hey, the way that we do business, we're gonna fundamentally shift.

Jenny Magic:

what we sell or how we sell it.

Jenny Magic:

Those, to me, are essential kind of non-negotiable, top priority projects.

Jenny Magic:

Those tend to have a lot of scrutiny.

Jenny Magic:

They have to pass a really high bar.

Jenny Magic:

They have a lot of planning.

Jenny Magic:

They have a lot of investment in their planning in terms of making sure we

Jenny Magic:

get it right, there's customer research and there's rollout plans, right?

Jenny Magic:

The kind of projects that drift into unworkable work and are really susceptible

Jenny Magic:

to triggering change, fatigue and burnout are the next tier of projects that

Jenny Magic:

are this internal improvement project.

Jenny Magic:

they're seeking to squeeze a little more productivity out of the team.

Jenny Magic:

They're seeking to organize materials in a more coherent way.

Jenny Magic:

They're seeking to centralize processes have been diverse or silos between teams.

Jenny Magic:

I think a lot of employees would say, yeah, that'd be

Jenny Magic:

great if I didn't have to do it.

Jenny Magic:

it's a great idea, but like, where are we gonna fit that in?

Jenny Magic:

And so until you can convince them that it is necessary right now, I.

Jenny Magic:

Achievable that we're gonna support it in the way it needs to be supported

Jenny Magic:

until they believe that it's unworkable.

Jenny Magic:

And you're gonna have an uphill battle sisyphusia pushing that rock

Jenny Magic:

up and having it roll back down on you until you can encourage them.

Jenny Magic:

and a project that starts out that way can shift.

Jenny Magic:

This is a mindset shift you can take your people on.

Jenny Magic:

But I think, a lot of times we, leaders tend to use our rational brains to try

Jenny Magic:

to shift the necessary and achievable.

Jenny Magic:

Mindset when in fact this is an emotional thing.

Jenny Magic:

All change is emotional, all change is lost.

Jenny Magic:

Like the woman on the call who was, in tears about her status quo, it is hard.

Jenny Magic:

No matter, even if we're moving towards a good thing, we're moving to, being

Jenny Magic:

childless to celebrating our first child.

Jenny Magic:

You're leaving behind your life without kids, right?

Jenny Magic:

Even if you want to go in the direction of the thing.

Jenny Magic:

There's a loss.

Jenny Magic:

And so acknowledging the loss, acknowledging the transition period,

Jenny Magic:

acknowledging how much time it takes to adjust to a new thing is

Jenny Magic:

essential for any change, especially a change that someone really doesn't

Jenny Magic:

understand why they're having all this impact being foisted on them.

Jenny Magic:

And so to the extent that we can go, yeah, I laid out the

Jenny Magic:

logical case for this change.

Jenny Magic:

I'm getting some resistance.

Jenny Magic:

Let me slow down and listen to what they're feeling.

Jenny Magic:

Are they feeling like we've done too many concurrent changes?

Jenny Magic:

This one might be a great idea, but there's too much other stuff going on.

Jenny Magic:

Is it the wrong time?

Jenny Magic:

do they feel like we're not gonna put the right resources behind it?

Jenny Magic:

Or one team's gonna bear the burden more than one team does the work and the

Jenny Magic:

other team gets the credit, like that's.

Jenny Magic:

A common problem that leads to this unpacking and this problem.

Jenny Magic:

So being able to understand that the folks who are impacted deserve to be

Jenny Magic:

heard and they need to believe it's necessary and achievable so that

Jenny Magic:

we can, move forward with some sort of same side of the table strategy.

Dallas Burnett:

I agree with that, so much and I love how you described the

Dallas Burnett:

acknowledging the change and even loss in that, just saying, Hey, look, I'm in

Dallas Burnett:

this transition period, and I lost that.

Dallas Burnett:

And that is sad because I, there was attribute, there was things

Dallas Burnett:

about that I really enjoyed.

Dallas Burnett:

And there's wonderful things of what's coming, but there's

Dallas Burnett:

always trade-offs, right?

Dallas Burnett:

, I don't think, I don't think organizations do a good job of that.

Dallas Burnett:

I, at least the ones that I've experienced and worked in or consulted with.

Dallas Burnett:

Yeah,

Jenny Magic:

A lot of times it's that the person felt like they

Jenny Magic:

were good at it the old way,

Jenny Magic:

and we're about to take them on a journey where at least for a period of

Jenny Magic:

time, they're gonna be real bad at it.

Jenny Magic:

So they went from being an expert in the old system and the old

Jenny Magic:

process, and they, people knocked on their door and asked for advice.

Jenny Magic:

Now they're in a situation where they don't have the first

Jenny Magic:

clue how the new thing works.

Jenny Magic:

they feel dumb, they feel unappreciated.

Jenny Magic:

They feel like their historic value has been diminished.

Jenny Magic:

And those are things that, like the social capital in a knowledge

Jenny Magic:

organization is a real resource.

Dallas Burnett:

Oh my

Jenny Magic:

some of these transitions take social capital from people

Jenny Magic:

in ways that leaders have a really hard time seeing and acknowledging.

Jenny Magic:

someone always used to be the linchpin of an old way of doing

Jenny Magic:

something and now it's distributed.

Jenny Magic:

It may be way more effective, but that person is gonna have a really

Jenny Magic:

hard time adapting to this new way of their social capital being diminished.

Dallas Burnett:

I have such, so many examples come to

Dallas Burnett:

my mind when you say that.

Dallas Burnett:

'cause I've just had so many different experiences like that.

Dallas Burnett:

But that same system that where I was telling you example about before, it was

Dallas Burnett:

years ago when we did that, but we had one of the guys that we were automating

Dallas Burnett:

certain attributes of his job . Now, he had done this for like 20 years.

Dallas Burnett:

There's no way that we're capturing his brain and all the nuance there and

Dallas Burnett:

experience there, but he was so anti the project and just was not giving

Dallas Burnett:

information, was not being, and he, we really needed him to be a part of it.

Dallas Burnett:

Finally, it just came down like, dude, what is the deal?

Dallas Burnett:

Like why and he finally got to voice his honest belief, and it was his

Dallas Burnett:

honest belief that we were trying to take this system and create this

Dallas Burnett:

automated process to replace him.

Dallas Burnett:

And we're like, oh, no, no, no.

Dallas Burnett:

You don't even get it like that's , not even in the same ballpark.

Dallas Burnett:

We're not even in the same state.

Dallas Burnett:

we're trying to take this to free you up to do more of what you love, that's

Dallas Burnett:

adding even more value and take you out of these repetitive things that

Dallas Burnett:

you don't even like doing anyway.

Dallas Burnett:

But he didn't see that he saw the loss.

Dallas Burnett:

When we don't know, we typically fill in the details with the negative.

Dallas Burnett:

That's just human nature.

Dallas Burnett:

And so he's going and filling in the details and in his mind he's sitting

Dallas Burnett:

there going, they're doing this.

Dallas Burnett:

They're gonna just do this.

Dallas Burnett:

And then once they, I help 'em build this thing, they're gonna fire me.

Dallas Burnett:

And we're sitting there on the other side going, man, if he

Dallas Burnett:

helps us build this thing, think of how much farther he could go.

Dallas Burnett:

But I think that to your point, we have got to improve as leaders I think

Dallas Burnett:

we're really not so good, especially visionaries, not so good at looking back.

Dallas Burnett:

' I think that's one of the things that, that catches is not being

Dallas Burnett:

able to say and have empathy for the person in that moment and say, look.

Dallas Burnett:

We get it.

Dallas Burnett:

This is where you were and we still value you, but it's not

Dallas Burnett:

gonna feel like that for a while.

Dallas Burnett:

Here's why you're gonna learn this new thing.

Dallas Burnett:

It's gonna be even better.

Dallas Burnett:

But we understand there's a process and just really speaking to that and

Dallas Burnett:

acknowledging the loss, you know,

Dallas Burnett:

um, that's really good.

Dallas Burnett:

. All right.

Dallas Burnett:

So we've talked about unworkable work, which when we talk about that, you talked

Dallas Burnett:

about like almost like tier B projects within an organization , it's that tier

Dallas Burnett:

B, so there's no focus in intensity., I think that's you either have to decide,

Dallas Burnett:

no, we're gonna put that on there.

Dallas Burnett:

We're, here's how we're gonna carve out the time to do it

Dallas Burnett:

and put more focus on it.

Dallas Burnett:

Or we're gonna say, Hey, pause until we get some more bandwidth.

Dallas Burnett:

So that's really good.

Dallas Burnett:

Unworkable work.

Dallas Burnett:

I like that.

Jenny Magic:

I love, there's a Maxim Little's law states that as

Jenny Magic:

work in progress increases, as the number of projects we have active

Jenny Magic:

at any given time increases our ability, our throughput decreases.

Jenny Magic:

So I think it's really important for leaders to think about those tier

Jenny Magic:

B projects as, detractors from the focus on the tier A projects, and also

Jenny Magic:

that, that these internal improvement projects, whatever they are, reorganizing

Jenny Magic:

the factory floor, putting a new project management system into place.

Jenny Magic:

Are competing with each other.

Jenny Magic:

And so a smarter way to do things is to have a relatively high bar

Jenny Magic:

for what we're gonna do right now.

Jenny Magic:

So instead of, six to 10 projects over the next 18 months, slowly grinding

Jenny Magic:

it out, are there three or four that we can put at the top of the list,

Jenny Magic:

give them a little more resources, a little more attention, a little more

Jenny Magic:

throughput, and then achieve some success.

Jenny Magic:

And on the back of that success, we are able to launch the next

Jenny Magic:

few set of internal improvements.

Jenny Magic:

also, we're gonna know a lot more.

Jenny Magic:

Three months or six months in when we launched the second set of projects than

Jenny Magic:

we did when we launched the first one.

Jenny Magic:

having all of this concurrent work, which I'm seeing a lot of organizations have,

Jenny Magic:

there's, org-wide, HR level improvement.

Jenny Magic:

There's team level improvement.

Jenny Magic:

There's, breaking down silos and communication, collaboration

Jenny Magic:

across team improvement.

Jenny Magic:

There's just so many improvement projects.

Jenny Magic:

Simultaneously taking attention that, that I think, a smart

Jenny Magic:

leader goes, what can we pause?

Jenny Magic:

What can we, how can we stack success?

Jenny Magic:

so that these guys really feel, and you know how you win

Jenny Magic:

trust and rapport and goodwill.

Jenny Magic:

You say, Hey everybody, that thing, you've been dreading.

Jenny Magic:

We're putting it on pause.

Dallas Burnett:

Oh yeah.

Jenny Magic:

applause and a sigh of relief.

Jenny Magic:

and people go, oh, they, they get it.

Jenny Magic:

Thank goodness they get it.

Dallas Burnett:

I love that.

Dallas Burnett:

It is so true.

Dallas Burnett:

The more.

Dallas Burnett:

The more you know, the more different competing initiatives you have.

Dallas Burnett:

Yes, throughput.

Dallas Burnett:

It makes total sense because they are competing.

Dallas Burnett:

Even though you're on the same team, those activities are not competing with

Dallas Burnett:

each other, competing with the time.

Dallas Burnett:

You've only got so many hours in the day and you've got to get this work done.

Dallas Burnett:

And so I do think that it forces the leader to prioritize

Dallas Burnett:

what's most important.

Dallas Burnett:

And so having that mission, vision, values and purpose, and really having clarity on.

Dallas Burnett:

Why we're doing what we're doing and then, what are we focused on as an organization?

Dallas Burnett:

How can we align with that is so much more important because

Dallas Burnett:

everything else is static.

Dallas Burnett:

Everything else is just lowering your productivity and

Dallas Burnett:

I think that, is unworkable.

Dallas Burnett:

Yeah, it's unworkable because like you said, if you've got six or eight

Dallas Burnett:

or nine, 10 projects going at one time and you're grinding it out

Dallas Burnett:

for six or eight months, that is.

Dallas Burnett:

And that is like inevitably generating change fatigue.

Dallas Burnett:

However, if I shorten the number of projects, I finish those

Dallas Burnett:

faster and I have success.

Dallas Burnett:

That's not change fatigue.

Dallas Burnett:

That's, that is confidence building.

Dallas Burnett:

We just.

Dallas Burnett:

We just had a pizza party.

Dallas Burnett:

You know, let's go, we we're invincible.

Dallas Burnett:

We can do this.

Dallas Burnett:

Let's bring on the next one.

Dallas Burnett:

That's momentum.

Dallas Burnett:

And and it's, and at the end of the day you might be able to do about the

Dallas Burnett:

same number of projects, but it, the feel of when you get to the finish line

Dallas Burnett:

of all of 'em is totally different.

Dallas Burnett:

So I love that.

Dallas Burnett:

That's really good.

Dallas Burnett:

well, Jenny, this has been a fantastic discussion today on

Dallas Burnett:

change management and just how we manage through change, fatigue.

Dallas Burnett:

How we need to be aware of unworkable work.

Dallas Burnett:

You've given us some things like, I love how you talked about

Dallas Burnett:

78% of leaders, don't, and they overestimate psychological safety.

Dallas Burnett:

How we need to get people to have, a confidential inquiry

Dallas Burnett:

on some different things.

Dallas Burnett:

And we go through change.

Dallas Burnett:

I love how we talked a little bit about how we have to

Dallas Burnett:

acknowledge the loss and change.

Dallas Burnett:

So, I mean, just fan fantastic discussion.

Dallas Burnett:

So we always.

Dallas Burnett:

We always end the show a couple ways.

Dallas Burnett:

First of all, let's talk about where can people find, change fatigue and where

Dallas Burnett:

can they find you if they want to get and reach out to you about more discussions

Dallas Burnett:

about change and where can they

Dallas Burnett:

find

Jenny Magic:

it.

Jenny Magic:

Both of those answers are changefatigue.com, where

Jenny Magic:

you can find the book.

Jenny Magic:

we have a quiz.

Jenny Magic:

What kind of change leader are you?

Jenny Magic:

Are you a visionary that has trouble slowing down and getting

Jenny Magic:

in the weeds, or are you someone that really wants to dive right in?

Jenny Magic:

there's also a really affordable online course if your team is struggling with

Jenny Magic:

this and needs some templates to actually start applying this to a specific project.

Jenny Magic:

And of course the contact form gets me on the other end of that.

Jenny Magic:

So I would always love to, to talk to folks.

Jenny Magic:

Um, yeah.

Dallas Burnett:

All right, great.

Dallas Burnett:

So we'll put those in the show notes and the last question we always ask every

Dallas Burnett:

guest is, who would you like to see or hear on as a guest on the last 10%?

Jenny Magic:

That is a great question.

Jenny Magic:

Um, you know, who immediately pops to mind is Mel Robbins of the High Five Habit.

Jenny Magic:

She, is such an inspiring leader who does a really nice job, I think,

Jenny Magic:

of threading the needle between.

Jenny Magic:

The kind of, actionable tactical stuff that I know leaders are used to seeing

Jenny Magic:

in their business books with the sort of emotional context that I'm trying to

Jenny Magic:

bring forward, which is, in knowledge work, you're buying what's between

Jenny Magic:

their ears and that is tangled up with their humanity and their feelings.

Jenny Magic:

And you know, as long as we're working with humans, we

Jenny Magic:

gotta be human as well, so.

Dallas Burnett:

That's fantastic.

Dallas Burnett:

Okay.

Dallas Burnett:

Mel Robbins, we will, we will reach out and see, if we can get her on

Dallas Burnett:

the show, that would be Yeah, I know.

Dallas Burnett:

Fingers crossed.

Dallas Burnett:

Who knows?

Dallas Burnett:

You never know.

Dallas Burnett:

So we've had some amazing guests so far, and so that would be, that'd be fun.

Dallas Burnett:

That'd be a fun episode.

Dallas Burnett:

Well, Jenny, thank you again for all the work that you do, for caring

Dallas Burnett:

for people, for really seeking to make changes in organizations and

Dallas Burnett:

help people move through change.

Dallas Burnett:

Well, we appreciate you and thank you for being a guest on the last 10%.

Jenny Magic:

My pleasure.

Jenny Magic:

Thanks for having me.

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About the Podcast

The Last 10%
Inspiring People, Coaching Teams, and Improving Cultures
Join The Last 10% for incredible conversations that help uncover the secrets of what it takes to finish well and finish strong. Our guests share their journeys, hardships, and valuable advice. We release new episodes every other Tuesday. If you are a leader, a coach, a business owner, or someone looking to level up, you are in the right place!

You can give 90% effort and make it a long way. But it’s the finding out how to unlock the last 10% that makes all the difference in your life, your relationships, and your work.

About your host

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Dallas Burnett