Scott Tillema | Connection - Hostage negotiator shares systematic approach to creating connections and influence

Dallas Burnett: 00:00:00

Welcome.

Dallas Burnett: 00:00:01

Welcome.

Dallas Burnett: 00:00:01

Welcome to the last 10%.

Dallas Burnett: 00:00:04

I am Dallas Burnett.

Dallas Burnett: 00:00:05

I am in Rob studios sitting in my 1905 Koch brothers, barber chair,

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but more importantly, we have today.

Dallas Burnett: 00:00:16

Scott Tillema awesome guest.

Dallas Burnett: 00:00:19

We're gonna talk a lot about communication because we have

Dallas Burnett: 00:00:23

a communication expert with us.

Dallas Burnett: 00:00:26

He's an FBI trained hostage, negotiator co-founder of The Negotiations Collective.

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He's a keynote speaker, I mean, and just all around.

Dallas Burnett: 00:00:34

Great guy.

Dallas Burnett: 00:00:35

So welcome.

Scott Tillema: 00:00:40

Hey Dallas, how are you?

Scott Tillema: 00:00:41

Great to be with you on the last 10% podcast?

Scott Tillema: 00:00:43

Absolutely,

Dallas Burnett: 00:00:44

Absolutely.

Dallas Burnett: 00:00:44

Thanks for being here . Well I just, I know everybody's after that intro

Dallas Burnett: 00:00:48

is just wondering, how did you get into doing what you're doing?

Dallas Burnett: 00:00:50

Like what tell us about what you're doing today in terms of hostage negotiations

Dallas Burnett: 00:00:54

and how you got to, to where you are.

Scott Tillema: 00:00:59

Yeah, thank you.

Scott Tillema: 00:00:59

I'm an active duty law enforcement officer in the Chicago area.

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I've got 20 years of experience in the field.

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One of my more interesting assignments that I've had in my career, I

Scott Tillema: 00:01:09

was trained by the FBI in 2007 in crisis and hostage negotiation.

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And I worked for one of the largest regional SWAT teams in the country

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as a crisis and a hostage negotiator.

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And it's a very interesting line of work that kind of brings together law enforce.

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Communication persuasion, influence and really, really interesting conversations

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with people in really critical moments.

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And to answer your question, how I get into this, my educational background

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is in behavioral science for undergrad, got a master's in psychology.

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So I'm really interested.

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In what people do, why they think, what they think and more

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importantly, how we can move them in the direction that we want to go.

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And doing this work was a lot of fun.

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You become a bit of an adrenaline junkie because every time the phone

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rings that it's life or death, it's truly, you're having conversations.

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Really intense moments.

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And I trust that hopefully a lot of your listeners are not leading these types

Scott Tillema: 00:02:06

of conversations, but all of us are having these difficult conversations,

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these impactful conversations that really Need some structure and need

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some guidance and people avoid them.

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And we're afraid of them because we're, we know that there's consequence to

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these conversations and particularly you do a lot of work in leadership.

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So for your leadership people out there, when you go into these conversations,

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do you have a vision of how it's going to go or are we just kind of

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swinging at defenses and, and hoping for good things and what I'm doing

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now in my work, as co-founder with The Negotiations Collective, we offer.

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Training and education for people in leadership roles on how to have these

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difficult conversations, how to be persuasive, how to be influential, how

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to make more money and, and get more things and make life a little bit easier.

Dallas Burnett: 00:02:53

Oh,

Dallas Burnett: 00:02:53

that's awesome.

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And I think you're so.

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On point with that, because I mean, as a leader, as a coach, as, as

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someone who's running a business or an organization, it it's, it's almost like

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there's, there's this spectrum either.

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We're not afraid to have a difficult conversation.

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And we go in like a bull in a China shop, and then we just kind of leave

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with a lot of collateral damage.

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just everywhere.

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Or, you know, maybe we are on the other side of the spectrum and we.

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Tend to avoid those conversations at all costs.

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And then we, we still end up having collateral damage.

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That's not as visible as more attention, underlying tension or

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manipulation and all these things.

Dallas Burnett: 00:03:29

And so I love how you say that.

Dallas Burnett: 00:03:31

There's a way, and it's almost like, Hey, we need to have a plan and an approach.

Dallas Burnett: 00:03:35

If, if you want to lead a team or lead an organization, I think having an approach

Dallas Burnett: 00:03:40

and a plan as it relates to this difficult communication is absolutely necessary.

Scott Tillema: 00:03:48

Absolutely.

Scott Tillema: 00:03:51

Yeah, for sure.

Scott Tillema: 00:03:51

For sure.

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You have to have a, a structure.

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And I've learned over many years of being engaged in these conversations

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that there there's different models, there's different approaches.

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The FBI teaches the behavioral change staircase model, and that's

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kind of the gold standard and hostage and crisis negotiation.

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And it's not a classified thing.

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Any of your listeners can put that into Google and look.

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And, and talk about that and learn about that.

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There's books written about the, the FBI approach.

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And I just see it a little bit differently.

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It's been around for 30 years.

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I think communication has evolved the way we connect with people has evolved.

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And I really think that it's important that what you see is all there is I

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think that's a, a really important concept to say, I see a stairway and

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a lot of people were starting at the bottom and I tell the high performers,

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your job is to get to the top, to get to the top stair five stairs up.

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And a lot of people rush to the top where they skip stairs and they trying

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to get right to the fifth step here.

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And when I teach.

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Hostage negotiations, conflict resolution, crisis negotiations.

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I show a visual of a circle and I say the circle represents

Scott Tillema: 00:04:59

the bond that we are creating.

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We're trying to form a connection with somebody.

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And I see this over and over again.

Scott Tillema: 00:05:05

We do training reality based training scenarios with law enforcement officers.

Scott Tillema: 00:05:10

And I'll jump out of a car and I'll be holding a knife to a neck,

Scott Tillema: 00:05:13

screaming at them and, and I let them know, Hey, I'm not afraid of you.

Scott Tillema: 00:05:18

I want to die.

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Their focus is only on the behavioral change, which is the very top

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stare, which is drop the knife, drop the knife, put the knife down.

Scott Tillema: 00:05:27

I order you to drop the knife.

Scott Tillema: 00:05:28

Oh, okay.

Scott Tillema: 00:05:29

Well, fantastic.

Scott Tillema: 00:05:30

It's not working.

Scott Tillema: 00:05:31

Why not?

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And when I change your perspective to say your goal, isn't to try to

Scott Tillema: 00:05:35

change my behavior, which is what everybody in society is doing.

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We're trying to sell you and market you.

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And we're all trying to get this influence.

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I say your goal is to form a bond with this person, your goal.

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To connect with this person.

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And once we have this mindset shift, now, all of a sudden

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we start listening to them.

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We start giving some thought, not only to what we say, but how we're saying it.

Scott Tillema: 00:05:59

And once we start focusing on, I wanna connect with you Dallas.

Scott Tillema: 00:06:04

I want to see how you see it.

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I wanna learn what your concerns are.

Scott Tillema: 00:06:09

Now.

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We become really powerful because I think that our power in negotiations comes from.

Scott Tillema: 00:06:14

Information and options.

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And once we start putting these things together, we learn, Hey, we can be

Scott Tillema: 00:06:20

really powerful and really influential.

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So I take a very different approach to crisis negotiations, and I found

Scott Tillema: 00:06:27

that this same approach can be used to be effective in customer service.

Scott Tillema: 00:06:32

And in leadership and in sales, because we are trying to get someone else to go where

Scott Tillema: 00:06:37

we want them to go in an ethical manner.

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That's not manipulative.

Scott Tillema: 00:06:41

And a lot of people in a lot of different fields are finding success with this.

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And I think it's fascinating to say we're all dealing with people.

Scott Tillema: 00:06:48

Hmm.

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I'm not negotiating with a major corporation.

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I'm negotiating with a person who has emotions and a thought

Scott Tillema: 00:06:55

process and decision making that is somewhat predictable.

Dallas Burnett: 00:06:58

Well, I

Dallas Burnett: 00:06:59

think.

Dallas Burnett: 00:07:00

Amazing.

Dallas Burnett: 00:07:00

I'm, I'm very curious to see if you've gotten a lot of pushback, whether it's

Dallas Burnett: 00:07:04

in your training or whether it's whether it's on actual on the job, but like that,

Dallas Burnett: 00:07:10

that approach is, is definitely unique.

Dallas Burnett: 00:07:13

And it's it's definitely not intuitive to a lot of, a lot of

Dallas Burnett: 00:07:16

people that you would first start.

Dallas Burnett: 00:07:18

I mean, in one sense, it's like common sense, but on the other

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side, it's not common behavior.

Dallas Burnett: 00:07:22

You know, so, so what, what I've seen in.

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Some in situations where we're going in, in a, in a coaching way, and we're

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trying to train on coaching, we'll see the pushback and somebody will say, Hey,

Dallas Burnett: 00:07:33

listen I can get this person to do what I wanna do just by being transactional.

Dallas Burnett: 00:07:37

I'm just gonna tell 'em.

Dallas Burnett: 00:07:38

And it's kinda like what your example was.

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It's like you're working on that behavior at the end.

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It's almost like a tactical approach at the end versus working on the front side

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and going and, and going with connection.

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Have you had a lot of pushback from people or, or any kind of you.

Dallas Burnett: 00:07:54

I don't know, just kind of in, in terms of when you're sharing that with, with

Dallas Burnett: 00:07:58

your trainees, you're sharing that

Dallas Burnett: 00:08:01

with,

Scott Tillema: 00:08:02

well, my first question is, is what you're doing right now.

Scott Tillema: 00:08:05

Working.

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If it's working for you, then keep doing it.

Scott Tillema: 00:08:08

Who might to tell you that in your field?

Scott Tillema: 00:08:10

I am the expert because I'm not, I don't know the technicalities of

Scott Tillema: 00:08:14

most of the work that people do.

Scott Tillema: 00:08:16

So.

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If you have a system that's working great do it.

Scott Tillema: 00:08:20

But a lot of folks aren't trained in this type of thing.

Scott Tillema: 00:08:23

And they're, they're challenged to say here's a script that

Scott Tillema: 00:08:27

I have, and it's about me.

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It's about my product, why I'm so interesting and why

Scott Tillema: 00:08:32

you should care about me.

Scott Tillema: 00:08:34

And we're seeing a change in our society right now, even

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over the last year or two, that.

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People are empowered.

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The, the companies don't have the control that they used to.

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And the command and control leadership approach is no longer

Scott Tillema: 00:08:47

working that people feel the, I, I have the right to work from home.

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I, I don't have to do this.

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And what we're seeing right now is a really big push on.

Scott Tillema: 00:08:59

An autonomy trigger.

Dallas Burnett: 00:09:00

Yes.

Scott Tillema: 00:09:00

We feel that over the last couple years, we have been told what to

Scott Tillema: 00:09:05

do, and this is pressing on our autonomy.

Scott Tillema: 00:09:08

So what used to be, I'm gonna tell you what to do, and then you have

Scott Tillema: 00:09:12

to do this and you have to comply.

Scott Tillema: 00:09:14

No, I don't need to do this.

Scott Tillema: 00:09:15

I don't need to work at this company.

Scott Tillema: 00:09:17

I don't need to wear a mask.

Scott Tillema: 00:09:18

I don't need to have this vaccine.

Scott Tillema: 00:09:20

I don't need to not work in the office.

Scott Tillema: 00:09:23

I do need to work from the office.

Scott Tillema: 00:09:24

I need to send my kids to school.

Scott Tillema: 00:09:26

I don't need to send my kids to school.

Scott Tillema: 00:09:28

And we're, we're getting a lot of pushback because I think people are

Scott Tillema: 00:09:31

frustrated of being told what to do.

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And especially in a free society in the us where we traditionally have the

Scott Tillema: 00:09:38

freedoms to do largely whatever we want.

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This is becoming tiresome for people.

Scott Tillema: 00:09:42

And now we're getting that pushback to say, I want the

Scott Tillema: 00:09:46

autonomy to do what I want.

Scott Tillema: 00:09:48

So the high pressure sales I'm going.

Scott Tillema: 00:09:51

Tell you what to do, you have to do this?

Scott Tillema: 00:09:53

I don't think is working with people much longer.

Scott Tillema: 00:09:56

So we have to take a different approach.

Scott Tillema: 00:09:58

And I think the idea of building a relationship, building a connection

Scott Tillema: 00:10:03

with them and allowing them the freedom to choose what they want to do next

Scott Tillema: 00:10:09

is very, very different from you have to do this because ultimately I.

Scott Tillema: 00:10:14

Pressure you into doing something and you might agree to do it begrudgingly.

Scott Tillema: 00:10:18

You might agree to do it.

Scott Tillema: 00:10:20

Ultimately, they're going to have to put this into play.

Scott Tillema: 00:10:23

They're actually going to have to do this.

Scott Tillema: 00:10:26

And if somebody's not willingly a partner with you, how likely

Scott Tillema: 00:10:30

are they to want to do this?

Scott Tillema: 00:10:32

Right.

Scott Tillema: 00:10:32

And are you going to get a good product?

Scott Tillema: 00:10:34

Do you have a strong agreement or not?

Scott Tillema: 00:10:35

And your proof is in the pudding.

Scott Tillema: 00:10:37

You're gonna have somebody who tells you.

Scott Tillema: 00:10:38

Yes.

Scott Tillema: 00:10:38

And they're really not gonna go along with it.

Scott Tillema: 00:10:40

They're gonna say yes.

Scott Tillema: 00:10:41

Just to get ready.

Dallas Burnett: 00:10:41

Yeah, exactly.

Dallas Burnett: 00:10:42

And I think too, I love, I love the direction you're going with

Dallas Burnett: 00:10:45

that because we're experiencing.

Dallas Burnett: 00:10:47

No matter what the organization, no matter the business, we're going through

Dallas Burnett: 00:10:50

this period of the great resignation.

Dallas Burnett: 00:10:51

And I think that it's for a lot of different reasons, but, you know,

Dallas Burnett: 00:10:54

working from home and all the COVID that situations that we've had to go through,

Dallas Burnett: 00:10:59

just people are in a different place now.

Dallas Burnett: 00:11:01

And I think that one of the challenges, I think that a lot of organizations

Dallas Burnett: 00:11:04

face is they, they kind of got caught.

Dallas Burnett: 00:11:08

Not knowing exactly.

Dallas Burnett: 00:11:09

Like, I think everybody took their eye off the ball because it's like,

Dallas Burnett: 00:11:12

okay, we gotta figure out how we can work remotely because you know, of

Dallas Burnett: 00:11:15

all the, you know, outside stuff that, that that's going on with COVID they,

Dallas Burnett: 00:11:20

we moved remote and now it's like, yes, but, but you, you have lost a

Dallas Burnett: 00:11:24

relational component of face to face.

Dallas Burnett: 00:11:26

So how, if you're not, if you weren't really doing a good job of connecting

Dallas Burnett: 00:11:30

with your, you know, team members before.

Dallas Burnett: 00:11:33

Man, how, how much worse is it now that you're not even face to face,

Dallas Burnett: 00:11:36

that you can't even see 'em in the hall or see 'em in the office or in

Dallas Burnett: 00:11:39

the break room or anything like that and build these relational connections.

Dallas Burnett: 00:11:42

So I think your message of connection is even more important now that

Dallas Burnett: 00:11:46

there that are more people working remotely, because it is more difficult

Dallas Burnett: 00:11:50

to connect with someone, you know, through a screen versus in person.

Dallas Burnett: 00:11:54

And and, but, and yet we have to be really intentional about.

Scott Tillema: 00:12:00

Of course.

Scott Tillema: 00:12:00

And so people ask me then, then how do we do this?

Scott Tillema: 00:12:03

It's more than, Hey, I want to connect with you.

Scott Tillema: 00:12:05

I wanna bond with you.

Scott Tillema: 00:12:06

I think the first step is realizing that we need to do that.

Scott Tillema: 00:12:09

That leadership is about the whole person.

Scott Tillema: 00:12:11

It's not just about their work.

Scott Tillema: 00:12:13

That if, if people don't feel that connection to you, you can expect them

Scott Tillema: 00:12:17

to leave your company and your agency because why, why are they still there?

Scott Tillema: 00:12:21

And that kind of leads into a discussion.

Scott Tillema: 00:12:24

You know, meaning and purpose.

Scott Tillema: 00:12:25

Why am I here?

Scott Tillema: 00:12:27

And I found that to be a really big thing in crisis negotiation.

Scott Tillema: 00:12:31

You're dealing with somebody at a really low point.

Scott Tillema: 00:12:33

They've lost their meaning.

Scott Tillema: 00:12:35

They've lost their purpose, cuz they're working so hard just to get by.

Scott Tillema: 00:12:38

I just need to pay the bills.

Scott Tillema: 00:12:39

I just need to figure out how I can get my next meal.

Scott Tillema: 00:12:41

I just need to get through this day.

Scott Tillema: 00:12:44

And it's a real struggle and.

Scott Tillema: 00:12:47

One of the things that I try and teach people.

Scott Tillema: 00:12:50

Now, the next generation of negotiators is can we help them find their meaning

Scott Tillema: 00:12:55

and purpose because they've lost that.

Scott Tillema: 00:12:58

And this is what we're seeing in society right now.

Scott Tillema: 00:13:00

People have lost their meaning and purpose, cuz we're working so hard just

Scott Tillema: 00:13:03

to get by gas prices are extraordinary.

Scott Tillema: 00:13:05

My, the retirement fund is collapsing.

Scott Tillema: 00:13:08

How do I get through this day?

Scott Tillema: 00:13:09

I can't find work.

Scott Tillema: 00:13:11

What is their meaning and purpose.

Scott Tillema: 00:13:12

And when we can help people find that now we're really getting into a

Scott Tillema: 00:13:17

powerful position and having a real connection with them because we're

Scott Tillema: 00:13:20

gonna help them see that, help them know their worth, help them know.

Scott Tillema: 00:13:24

Their value.

Scott Tillema: 00:13:26

And we forget that when we're just trying to get by.

Scott Tillema: 00:13:28

That's a piece that we forget.

Scott Tillema: 00:13:30

And over my work in negotiation, I've really identified four important

Scott Tillema: 00:13:34

principles that we need to touch on and focus on when we're trying to

Scott Tillema: 00:13:38

build that connection with people.

Scott Tillema: 00:13:40

And I, I.

Scott Tillema: 00:13:42

Having come up with these four principles.

Scott Tillema: 00:13:44

They're not mine.

Scott Tillema: 00:13:45

Everybody's heard of them, but no, one's put them together like this before.

Scott Tillema: 00:13:48

And I use this in trying to find connection and influence

Scott Tillema: 00:13:52

and the four principles.

Scott Tillema: 00:13:53

It's understanding, timing, delivery, and respect that whether I'm having a

Scott Tillema: 00:13:59

hostage negotiation, a crisis negotiation with someone who's having a bad day.

Scott Tillema: 00:14:03

Or I'm just trying to get to know somebody or trying to push

Scott Tillema: 00:14:08

them in the right direction.

Scott Tillema: 00:14:09

They need to go.

Scott Tillema: 00:14:11

These are the principles that we need to work through, that I can't sell

Scott Tillema: 00:14:15

you on something that you don't want.

Scott Tillema: 00:14:17

So let's begin by understanding who you are and what you need, and then

Scott Tillema: 00:14:21

being thoughtful of the timing that.

Scott Tillema: 00:14:24

I could have the exact right thing to say, but if I say it at the wrong time

Scott Tillema: 00:14:28

or ask the question at the wrong time, it could be disastrous or ineffective.

Scott Tillema: 00:14:32

So think about the timing, the delivery.

Scott Tillema: 00:14:35

Not only do we need to consider what we say, but we need

Scott Tillema: 00:14:39

to consider how we say it.

Scott Tillema: 00:14:41

And for everybody that prepares for their difficult conversations and their

Scott Tillema: 00:14:45

negotiations, they're always coming up with their content or they should be

Scott Tillema: 00:14:49

coming up with their content, but rarely do they give thought to the delivery

Scott Tillema: 00:14:53

of how they actually present that.

Scott Tillema: 00:14:56

And I think that our delivery.

Scott Tillema: 00:14:59

Is what creates feeling in the other person, whether I like you or dislike

Scott Tillema: 00:15:04

you or I'm, I'm feeling uncertain or there's a trust issue there.

Scott Tillema: 00:15:08

A lot of that comes from delivery.

Scott Tillema: 00:15:09

So are we practicing how we say what we say?

Scott Tillema: 00:15:12

And then the last piece of respect people say, you know, this is the

Scott Tillema: 00:15:14

easy one I'm being respectful, but I think that respect is about emotion.

Scott Tillema: 00:15:20

And are we triggering people's emotion by how we're, how we're presenting this?

Scott Tillema: 00:15:24

And, and this respect piece, this kind of dips into fairness, are you being fair?

Scott Tillema: 00:15:29

It dips into autonomy.

Scott Tillema: 00:15:30

It dips into empathy.

Scott Tillema: 00:15:32

Can you see it the way that they see it?

Scott Tillema: 00:15:34

And when we start putting these four pieces together, I just see it as a

Scott Tillema: 00:15:37

circle we're going around and around.

Scott Tillema: 00:15:39

And these four principles when we're touching on each one of these.

Scott Tillema: 00:15:43

Now we're forming a connection.

Scott Tillema: 00:15:45

Now we're forming dialogue.

Scott Tillema: 00:15:46

My goal is to have a real dialogue with you to hear from you to

Scott Tillema: 00:15:51

elicit this information, to inquire further, to suspend judgment.

Scott Tillema: 00:15:56

And this is how we get it done at a really high level.

Scott Tillema: 00:15:58

When I'm trying to get a peaceful resolution in a situation when I

Scott Tillema: 00:16:03

really don't have much to offer.

Scott Tillema: 00:16:05

I'm not coming in offering you money or a helicopter or something that you might see

Scott Tillema: 00:16:09

in the movies, but yet we're still able to get a job done in the majority of the

Scott Tillema: 00:16:13

situations reach this peaceful outcome.

Scott Tillema: 00:16:16

So this is what I use in my work in crisis and hostage negotiations.

Scott Tillema: 00:16:20

This is what I teach when I teach this for companies, I teach it for law enforcement.

Scott Tillema: 00:16:23

I teacher at universities.

Scott Tillema: 00:16:25

This seems to work.

Scott Tillema: 00:16:26

This is my.

Scott Tillema: 00:16:26

My ingredients to connecting with people.

Scott Tillema: 00:16:29

And once you have a connection, then we've got influence.

Scott Tillema: 00:16:33

Now you can start to have people, listen to you and, and get them going

Scott Tillema: 00:16:37

in the way that you want them to go.

Dallas Burnett: 00:16:39

Man.

Dallas Burnett: 00:16:39

That is so that's just so amazing.

Dallas Burnett: 00:16:42

I love, I love how you framed that up.

Dallas Burnett: 00:16:44

I love how you've packaged that.

Dallas Burnett: 00:16:45

I like the idea of the circle, because it's almost like

Dallas Burnett: 00:16:47

you're saying it's iterative.

Dallas Burnett: 00:16:49

It's not like you have understanding first and then timing the delivery and then.

Dallas Burnett: 00:16:54

You have respect and then you're done.

Dallas Burnett: 00:16:55

It's like that process just keeps ongoing.

Dallas Burnett: 00:16:58

And the more that you kind of go around that circle, and the more times that

Dallas Burnett: 00:17:01

you can go through that circle, I would imagine the greater, the connection

Dallas Burnett: 00:17:04

that you have with that person.

Dallas Burnett: 00:17:05

So you, I love how you've, you've packaged that in, in that way.

Dallas Burnett: 00:17:09

Tell us about, tell us about a time if you, if you can think of that

Dallas Burnett: 00:17:13

you've used this and implemented this in a, in a situation with one

Dallas Burnett: 00:17:17

of your negotiations, whenever you hear of hostage negotiations, I mean,

Dallas Burnett: 00:17:20

I immediately go to like the movie.

Dallas Burnett: 00:17:23

I don't even know when it was, this's called the negotiator.

Dallas Burnett: 00:17:24

I think Samuel will Jackson or something's in it now.

Dallas Burnett: 00:17:26

I know there's a lot of Hollywood in that movie and whatever, but I'd love

Dallas Burnett: 00:17:29

to hear, you know, of a, of, of a story that you that you've experienced, that,

Dallas Burnett: 00:17:33

that you were implementing this in.

Dallas Burnett: 00:17:39

Yeah.

Scott Tillema: 00:17:40

And I think that we learn best from maybe the ones that didn't work.

Scott Tillema: 00:17:45

I, I think that it's important that we take our, our failures and learn from

Scott Tillema: 00:17:50

that rather than just celebrating the successes and say, well, this has worked

Scott Tillema: 00:17:54

so good because here's what I did.

Scott Tillema: 00:17:55

And I think that just starting on the first, the very first principle

Scott Tillema: 00:17:59

of understanding particularly with leaders, it's not that.

Scott Tillema: 00:18:03

Bad listeners and they don't know how to understand.

Scott Tillema: 00:18:07

I think they're probably quite good at that, but where they trip up here is that

Scott Tillema: 00:18:11

they just don't do it because we're busy.

Scott Tillema: 00:18:14

We have pressing issues.

Scott Tillema: 00:18:15

So let's go to the next, let's go to the next.

Scott Tillema: 00:18:17

So this is the one that we skip and when you skip the

Scott Tillema: 00:18:21

understanding bad things happen.

Scott Tillema: 00:18:23

So to answer your question here I was having a face to face negotiation

Scott Tillema: 00:18:28

with a man who was holding a gun to.

Scott Tillema: 00:18:30

And usually we don't do face to face negotiations because it's a

Scott Tillema: 00:18:34

little bit dangerous, obviously.

Scott Tillema: 00:18:36

Yeah.

Scott Tillema: 00:18:36

But in this particular case, the SWAT team had moved forward and they

Scott Tillema: 00:18:40

were in the basement of this person.

Scott Tillema: 00:18:43

So we are talking face to face, which I think is really powerful

Scott Tillema: 00:18:46

communication because unlike over the phone, when you can just hear

Scott Tillema: 00:18:49

my voice, now we can see each other.

Scott Tillema: 00:18:52

And that's really, really powerful.

Scott Tillema: 00:18:54

but he was suicidal and he was holding a gun to his head.

Scott Tillema: 00:18:57

And this is the intense moments where every word counts the

Scott Tillema: 00:19:01

way you say every word counts.

Scott Tillema: 00:19:04

And I talked to this man for a couple hours and I was, I remember trying to sell

Scott Tillema: 00:19:09

him on the idea of, we should take you to the hospital because I just come in

Scott Tillema: 00:19:15

assuming, you know, the police are there.

Scott Tillema: 00:19:17

Nobody wants to go to jail and they, they just assume that we're gonna

Scott Tillema: 00:19:20

take him away and they're in trouble.

Scott Tillema: 00:19:22

So I tried to ease that by saying, you know, instead of taking you with

Scott Tillema: 00:19:27

us, we can get you to the hospital where we can get you some help.

Scott Tillema: 00:19:30

Assuming again, this is what he wants.

Scott Tillema: 00:19:32

And.

Scott Tillema: 00:19:34

I it's, it's been a while since I've, I've had this conversation.

Scott Tillema: 00:19:37

So I look back and I try to remember, did I inquire with him?

Scott Tillema: 00:19:41

Did I ask him, is this what you want to do before I started selling him

Scott Tillema: 00:19:46

on this is a good idea because Scott thinks this is a good idea, right?

Scott Tillema: 00:19:50

Rather than asking this gentleman, is this something that would be helpful to you?

Scott Tillema: 00:19:53

Is this something that you want?

Scott Tillema: 00:19:55

And I reflect upon this one, because this is probably the most

Scott Tillema: 00:19:59

memorable negotiation I did because.

Scott Tillema: 00:20:01

Ultimately later on that day he shot himself and it's, it's

Scott Tillema: 00:20:10

always troubling to look back and say, I had the opportunity to.

Scott Tillema: 00:20:16

send this in a different direction.

Scott Tillema: 00:20:18

And usually we get a, a peaceful outcome a safe surrender.

Scott Tillema: 00:20:21

So why not in this case?

Scott Tillema: 00:20:23

Why did this one go bad?

Scott Tillema: 00:20:25

And when the consequences are so great, it's really tough not to look back and

Scott Tillema: 00:20:30

and, and really try to dissect that and have that autopsy to say what went wrong?

Scott Tillema: 00:20:34

What, what could I have said?

Scott Tillema: 00:20:36

What didn't I say, what didn't I ask?

Scott Tillema: 00:20:38

And it turns out he didn't wanna go to the hospital.

Scott Tillema: 00:20:40

He was just been released from the hospital.

Scott Tillema: 00:20:42

So here I am trying to sell him on something that he didn't want

Scott Tillema: 00:20:46

because for anybody who's actually been a patient in the hospital, you

Scott Tillema: 00:20:50

realize that's not a friendly place.

Scott Tillema: 00:20:52

That's not a nice place.

Scott Tillema: 00:20:53

It's not a fun place.

Scott Tillema: 00:20:54

I just want to be not there.

Scott Tillema: 00:20:56

And here I am trying to sell him on this thing that wasn't going to work because

Scott Tillema: 00:21:01

of course he didn't want to go back there.

Scott Tillema: 00:21:04

So.

Scott Tillema: 00:21:05

Did I take the time to understand his situation?

Scott Tillema: 00:21:08

Did I take the time to be a good listener?

Scott Tillema: 00:21:10

First?

Scott Tillema: 00:21:11

Did I ask the good questions?

Scott Tillema: 00:21:13

And most people listening in today are not going to have that level of consequence

Scott Tillema: 00:21:18

and their difficult conversations.

Scott Tillema: 00:21:20

Their consequence is just not going to be that significant.

Scott Tillema: 00:21:24

So let's slow things down a little.

Scott Tillema: 00:21:26

And be willing to take the time and be willing to ask the questions

Scott Tillema: 00:21:30

with the people that we're dealing with and explore that a little

Scott Tillema: 00:21:33

bit and be compassionate about it.

Scott Tillema: 00:21:34

Yeah.

Scott Tillema: 00:21:35

Yeah.

Scott Tillema: 00:21:35

Oh, and say, you know, I don't know.

Scott Tillema: 00:21:37

I don't understand how quickly do we just wanna say yeah, I understand Dallas.

Scott Tillema: 00:21:41

I understand, but I don't know you, I don't know your situation.

Scott Tillema: 00:21:44

I don't know your history at least not deep enough that I

Scott Tillema: 00:21:47

can be making decisions for you.

Scott Tillema: 00:21:49

So let's really lead with questions and be great listeners and engage in the eight

Scott Tillema: 00:21:53

skills of active listening, which is.

Scott Tillema: 00:21:56

A foundational bedrock of my profession to say, we need to begin.

Scott Tillema: 00:22:02

By understanding begin by listening and learning.

Scott Tillema: 00:22:05

And now when we're face to face or if we're on zoom and this is another

Scott Tillema: 00:22:09

big change in how we communicate.

Scott Tillema: 00:22:11

Not only do we need to be great listeners, but are we understanding what we see?

Scott Tillema: 00:22:16

Are we studying gestures?

Scott Tillema: 00:22:18

And body language and facial expressions.

Scott Tillema: 00:22:21

There is so much information to be gathered here.

Scott Tillema: 00:22:24

And this has really changed in the last couple years, because

Scott Tillema: 00:22:27

three years ago, I would never be doing zoom calls with people.

Scott Tillema: 00:22:30

I would be doing phone calls with people.

Scott Tillema: 00:22:32

So we have the ability to take in this information.

Scott Tillema: 00:22:35

are we doing this?

Scott Tillema: 00:22:36

Are we paying attention to that?

Scott Tillema: 00:22:37

Are we studying this?

Scott Tillema: 00:22:39

And maybe we're missing really obvious information there.

Scott Tillema: 00:22:42

And I would even go as far as to say that if we are faced with a competing

Scott Tillema: 00:22:48

difference between what I see and what I hear, I'm gonna fall back on what I see,

Scott Tillema: 00:22:52

because if I can see it, I can believe.

Scott Tillema: 00:22:54

Yeah.

Scott Tillema: 00:22:54

So yes, we have to be great listeners, but there's a whole bunch of other skills that

Scott Tillema: 00:22:59

now we need to be taking in and studying.

Scott Tillema: 00:23:02

And this is an important piece and a, and a change in

Scott Tillema: 00:23:05

communication that we need to be.

Scott Tillema: 00:23:07

We need to be good at this.

Scott Tillema: 00:23:09

We need to be really good at this.

Scott Tillema: 00:23:10

And that helps us understand the person, understand the situation.

Dallas Burnett: 00:23:13

There's

Dallas Burnett: 00:23:14

just so much.

Dallas Burnett: 00:23:15

That I just found fascinating.

Dallas Burnett: 00:23:17

Number one.

Dallas Burnett: 00:23:18

I, I appreciate you being honest and, and open about an experience

Dallas Burnett: 00:23:22

that you look back on and you go now, how could I have done that better?

Dallas Burnett: 00:23:25

I was actually, you know, was talking to a Navy Seal and,

Dallas Burnett: 00:23:28

and he makes all his employees.

Dallas Burnett: 00:23:30

When they present their resume, he makes 'em present a reverse resume I

Dallas Burnett: 00:23:33

think he calls it a reverse resume.

Dallas Burnett: 00:23:35

And it's like, you go back through and all those highlights that you have

Dallas Burnett: 00:23:38

on your resume, you have to put it in reverse and put all the failures that

Dallas Burnett: 00:23:41

were in between all those, you know, on those highlights, because he wants to

Dallas Burnett: 00:23:45

see how they respond to those failures.

Dallas Burnett: 00:23:47

I think that's such a good, I think that's such a good lesson and, and I,

Dallas Burnett: 00:23:50

I appreciate you Le you know, leading the story with that, because I think.

Dallas Burnett: 00:23:54

I think it's just, it also is, man.

Dallas Burnett: 00:23:56

It's so intense.

Dallas Burnett: 00:23:56

I could not imagine the level of intensity standing there with the

Dallas Burnett: 00:24:01

SWAT team in place, guns drawn.

Dallas Burnett: 00:24:04

You've got another guy with a gun and you're, you're the guy that's

Dallas Burnett: 00:24:07

supposed to be calm, cool, and collected in that whole situation.

Dallas Burnett: 00:24:12

and, and then you've gotta stay cool enough to be thinking ahead and, and

Dallas Burnett: 00:24:16

working this model that you've laid out.

Dallas Burnett: 00:24:18

Tell me this, this is just a, this is kind of a little bit off topic,

Dallas Burnett: 00:24:22

but I mean, your, your level of the environment that you operated

Dallas Burnett: 00:24:25

in has such high level of stress.

Dallas Burnett: 00:24:27

How do you, how do you manage that?

Dallas Burnett: 00:24:29

Like, how do you, how do you deal with that?

Dallas Burnett: 00:24:31

Cuz that seems like it would be really intense.

Scott Tillema: 00:24:37

a lot of this is, is practice.

Scott Tillema: 00:24:39

And just like anything else you can't be expected to perform if

Scott Tillema: 00:24:43

you're not practice practicing.

Scott Tillema: 00:24:46

And a lot of these, when, when I do training for negotiators, a lot of

Scott Tillema: 00:24:50

these folks say, you know, we don't have the opportunity to train and practice.

Scott Tillema: 00:24:55

And for me, that's the scary part to say, How can you be expected to have

Scott Tillema: 00:24:59

a life or death conversation if you're not getting these reps in, and there's

Scott Tillema: 00:25:03

different ways to do this, and there's different ways to, to practice this.

Scott Tillema: 00:25:06

And I say, most simply, if nothing else, the next time you get a spam call, one

Scott Tillema: 00:25:12

of these people that's selling you, your car warranty, or your grandchild

Scott Tillema: 00:25:16

was kidnapped in another country.

Scott Tillema: 00:25:18

Use this as an opportunity to practice the eight skills of

Scott Tillema: 00:25:22

active listen, you can go online.

Scott Tillema: 00:25:24

Google eight skills of active listening.

Scott Tillema: 00:25:25

First of all, let's know what this is.

Scott Tillema: 00:25:28

And then let's practice this.

Scott Tillema: 00:25:29

Let's get good at asking open ended questions concepts

Scott Tillema: 00:25:32

like reflecting or mirroring.

Scott Tillema: 00:25:34

Let's try this.

Scott Tillema: 00:25:35

This is not something that I use in my everyday conversation.

Scott Tillema: 00:25:38

But at a high level, I'll start engaging in these skills.

Scott Tillema: 00:25:40

Are we good at paraphrasing and summarizing what's being said, are we good

Scott Tillema: 00:25:45

at emotion labeling to say, Hey, I, you sound a little bit frustrated right now.

Scott Tillema: 00:25:49

And we're connecting with the emotion behind what they're saying.

Scott Tillema: 00:25:52

All right.

Scott Tillema: 00:25:53

Really cool.

Scott Tillema: 00:25:54

Are we good at silence?

Scott Tillema: 00:25:56

These effective pauses?

Scott Tillema: 00:25:58

And a lot of people aren't, we'll put a pause in the conversation and

Scott Tillema: 00:26:02

now people are like, ah, I gotta jump in and fill this gap right here.

Scott Tillema: 00:26:07

Are we comfortable having a moment of silence or really kind of letting

Scott Tillema: 00:26:11

that silence hang and allowing that person to take that in or

Scott Tillema: 00:26:15

giving them room to keep talking?

Scott Tillema: 00:26:16

So when we do this.

Scott Tillema: 00:26:18

All the time and we just practice this.

Scott Tillema: 00:26:21

And I was lucky.

Scott Tillema: 00:26:21

I was on a very professional team where we did a lot of training, not only as a

Scott Tillema: 00:26:27

SWAT team, more broadly, but just as a negotiations team, that this is just kind

Scott Tillema: 00:26:32

of another conversation that we have.

Scott Tillema: 00:26:34

And for somebody that doesn't.

Scott Tillema: 00:26:36

Immerse themself in this.

Scott Tillema: 00:26:38

This would be such a big moment that, oh my gosh, you know, what do I do?

Scott Tillema: 00:26:43

And truly, I will say that I remember my first time that I was on the

Scott Tillema: 00:26:47

phone as the primary negotiator.

Scott Tillema: 00:26:49

It is overwhelming it's I, I really had that moment of man.

Scott Tillema: 00:26:52

I can't remember any of this because this is a big, stressful situation,

Scott Tillema: 00:26:57

but by practicing, it becomes common.

Scott Tillema: 00:26:59

And I would say, I want you to be so good at this, that these aren't skills.

Scott Tillema: 00:27:04

But this is who you are that I can take these principles.

Scott Tillema: 00:27:08

And this is who I am, that these skills of listening, that I'm not going

Scott Tillema: 00:27:12

through a checklist of saying, these are skills that I'm working through.

Scott Tillema: 00:27:15

This is just who I am.

Scott Tillema: 00:27:17

And you wanna be that good, but also we don't do this individually.

Scott Tillema: 00:27:22

And this is the, the bit of the cheat side of it that you don't see in Hollywood.

Scott Tillema: 00:27:27

In Hollywood, you have the negotiator, you got Denzel Washington on

Scott Tillema: 00:27:31

the phone, doing amazing things.

Scott Tillema: 00:27:33

Awesome.

Scott Tillema: 00:27:33

Yeah, but we're working as a team.

Scott Tillema: 00:27:36

Rarely do you have one negotiator getting the job done in these situations?

Scott Tillema: 00:27:41

And I don't think that it should be any different in corporate negotiations

Scott Tillema: 00:27:45

that let's set the ego aside.

Scott Tillema: 00:27:47

Let's leave that at the door.

Scott Tillema: 00:27:48

If you're the decision maker, you shouldn't be the negotiator.

Scott Tillema: 00:27:51

I need that to be removed from you.

Scott Tillema: 00:27:54

And this is where we find problems.

Scott Tillema: 00:27:55

We have people with ego that.

Scott Tillema: 00:27:58

I need to be the one conducting this negotiation, having this

Scott Tillema: 00:28:01

conversation, you really need to remove that and put a team in place.

Scott Tillema: 00:28:07

When we do this, we have a primary negotiator.

Scott Tillema: 00:28:09

That's the person on the phone.

Scott Tillema: 00:28:11

We have a secondary negotiator.

Scott Tillema: 00:28:12

That's a coach.

Scott Tillema: 00:28:13

That person is solely focused on the primary negotiator,

Scott Tillema: 00:28:17

giving real time feedback.

Scott Tillema: 00:28:19

And listening into the conversation.

Scott Tillema: 00:28:21

We have guys doing intelligence work, finding out about your background,

Scott Tillema: 00:28:25

checking your social media.

Scott Tillema: 00:28:27

What can I learn about you to help us have a productive conversation?

Scott Tillema: 00:28:31

We have technical guys who are working on the equipment.

Scott Tillema: 00:28:34

We have a team leader who's making decisions and liaisoning with

Scott Tillema: 00:28:37

other members of this SWAT team.

Scott Tillema: 00:28:39

I got a wa officer who.

Scott Tillema: 00:28:41

I'm surrounded by whiteboards and, and they're putting notes up on the board.

Scott Tillema: 00:28:45

Here's information about this here's information about the offender,

Scott Tillema: 00:28:48

about weapons, about demands and they're jotting down like a

Scott Tillema: 00:28:51

legal record of what's going on.

Scott Tillema: 00:28:53

So I'm surrounded by support.

Scott Tillema: 00:28:55

It's not just me having this conversation and why can't we do that?

Scott Tillema: 00:28:59

Same thing in the corporate world have true teams working

Scott Tillema: 00:29:03

toward negotiating great success.

Scott Tillema: 00:29:06

And being willing to humble ourselves to say that if we wanna be great at

Scott Tillema: 00:29:11

this, it's going take more than just me.

Scott Tillema: 00:29:14

I really want to have a team of specialists who are focused

Scott Tillema: 00:29:17

on getting successful results.

Scott Tillema: 00:29:19

Oh,

Dallas Burnett: 00:29:19

there is so much there.

Dallas Burnett: 00:29:21

First of all, I want to go back to something you said early on, and that

Dallas Burnett: 00:29:24

is if you are listening to the last 10% right now, I think we just had.

Dallas Burnett: 00:29:30

This amazing nugget of value drop that I, I think could be

Dallas Burnett: 00:29:34

one of the most actionable items that we've ever had on the show.

Dallas Burnett: 00:29:37

I've never heard.

Dallas Burnett: 00:29:39

Anyone be able to take a spam call and turn it into something useful until now.

Dallas Burnett: 00:29:45

I mean, if you didn't hear anything else today, the fact that you could take a

Dallas Burnett: 00:29:48

spam call and use it to practice how you're going to implement the eight

Dallas Burnett: 00:29:53

skills of active listening is amazing.

Dallas Burnett: 00:29:57

I love that.

Dallas Burnett: 00:29:58

It is so awesome.

Dallas Burnett: 00:29:59

I mean, really you've taken something that is.

Dallas Burnett: 00:30:02

An absolute nuisance to me, and now you've given it actual meaning and purpose.

Dallas Burnett: 00:30:08

So next time I get a spam call.

Dallas Burnett: 00:30:10

I'm gonna actually try it out.

Dallas Burnett: 00:30:11

I'm gonna do it.

Dallas Burnett: 00:30:12

I'm totally gonna do that.

Dallas Burnett: 00:30:13

The next spam call.

Dallas Burnett: 00:30:14

So all the spammers look out.

Dallas Burnett: 00:30:15

You're you're you're you're gonna run into the eight skills of

Dallas Burnett: 00:30:17

active listing on the next call.

Dallas Burnett: 00:30:19

I also love how.

Scott Tillema: 00:30:22

Yeah, and, and those guys are good too.

Scott Tillema: 00:30:24

So you have to be good because they're gonna sniff you out if you're faking it.

Scott Tillema: 00:30:27

So I want you to be really good to keep them on

Scott Tillema: 00:30:29

the line.

Dallas Burnett: 00:30:30

That's awesome.

Dallas Burnett: 00:30:30

That's a challenge.

Dallas Burnett: 00:30:31

Okay.

Dallas Burnett: 00:30:32

So if you are listening to the show, please, please try it out.

Dallas Burnett: 00:30:37

We'd love to, we'd love to hear how that goes.

Dallas Burnett: 00:30:40

And so if you try it.

Dallas Burnett: 00:30:41

Connect with me on LinkedIn or, or go through, think, move, thrive,

Dallas Burnett: 00:30:44

and let us know how it works out.

Dallas Burnett: 00:30:45

Cause I'd love to hear your story.

Dallas Burnett: 00:30:47

I will absolutely try this out.

Dallas Burnett: 00:30:48

This is gonna be something that it's just, now it's a challenge.

Dallas Burnett: 00:30:51

It's a fun.

Dallas Burnett: 00:30:51

So I'm gonna, I'm gonna do it.

Dallas Burnett: 00:30:53

And so I think another thing that you were, you were,

Dallas Burnett: 00:30:55

you were mentioning is yeah.

Dallas Burnett: 00:30:57

How hard it is to separate the emotions that we have tied up in, in a decision.

Dallas Burnett: 00:31:04

Many times you know, from something that we're negotiating, especially when it gets

Dallas Burnett: 00:31:08

into that goes there's there's emotions that can arise in the negotiation.

Dallas Burnett: 00:31:14

If you're the one making the decision that could, you know, really block the

Dallas Burnett: 00:31:18

clarity that you need to, to have a, have a great negotiation, you know, and, and

Dallas Burnett: 00:31:22

also kind of, you know, really hamper that circle, you know, that the four

Dallas Burnett: 00:31:28

principles that you were talking about, the, the, the understanding, the timing,

Dallas Burnett: 00:31:31

and even the respect, if you, if you get.

Dallas Burnett: 00:31:33

In the decision and you're like, oh, so I love how you pointed that out.

Dallas Burnett: 00:31:36

I think that, especially for anybody that's running teams, running projects,

Dallas Burnett: 00:31:41

business leaders, organizational leaders, that's, that's awesome advice.

Dallas Burnett: 00:31:44

And I love also how you are.

Dallas Burnett: 00:31:45

So Quick to to give all the credit to this supporting team of

Dallas Burnett: 00:31:50

negotiators and that you're not the one running this thing alone and

Dallas Burnett: 00:31:53

how you guys are working together.

Dallas Burnett: 00:31:55

It's a, it's like a, a well old machine, how you've got these whiteboards going on.

Dallas Burnett: 00:31:59

And man, that it actually does sound like the movies.

Dallas Burnett: 00:32:02

That's incredible.

Dallas Burnett: 00:32:02

I love, I love the description of that.

Scott Tillema: 00:32:07

And it's important to know your role there.

Scott Tillema: 00:32:10

And we, there is no hero here.

Scott Tillema: 00:32:12

The.

Scott Tillema: 00:32:13

Outcome is what we want.

Scott Tillema: 00:32:15

We want a great outcome.

Scott Tillema: 00:32:17

And I remember going through reports, there was a hostage situation where

Scott Tillema: 00:32:22

a man took his ex-girlfriend hostage and my partner was on the phone.

Scott Tillema: 00:32:26

And after this, you know, all, all the police.

Scott Tillema: 00:32:30

Everything we do is a matter of record.

Scott Tillema: 00:32:32

And I scribbled a note to her and it was, I knew it was my handwriting.

Scott Tillema: 00:32:36

It was bad handwriting.

Scott Tillema: 00:32:37

And I was using the whiteboard marker that I used, and it was a, a paper.

Scott Tillema: 00:32:41

And, and I just wrote on there, you sound great.

Scott Tillema: 00:32:44

And this was collected and, and scanned into record.

Scott Tillema: 00:32:47

And I, I just.

Scott Tillema: 00:32:49

What, what little piece this is that I contributed to this to say, how important

Scott Tillema: 00:32:54

is that when you're under the gun and you get a little bit of feedback that

Scott Tillema: 00:32:58

says, Hey, you're, you're doing well.

Scott Tillema: 00:33:00

You're going in the right direction.

Scott Tillema: 00:33:02

I'm not saying, Hey, gimme the phone.

Scott Tillema: 00:33:03

I'm gonna take over just those little words to say, Hey, you sound great.

Scott Tillema: 00:33:07

Can make a real difference to somebody who's working really hard under

Scott Tillema: 00:33:11

pressure to give them that validation and is really, really interesting.

Scott Tillema: 00:33:15

Oprah winf.

Scott Tillema: 00:33:17

Talks about how she's got.

Scott Tillema: 00:33:19

Thousands of guests on her show, 35,000 guests, or however many

Scott Tillema: 00:33:22

people have been on her show.

Scott Tillema: 00:33:23

Then she goes, the one consistent thing that people want is validation

Scott Tillema: 00:33:27

that they finish the interview and then they ask, how was it?

Scott Tillema: 00:33:30

How did I do?

Scott Tillema: 00:33:31

Was that okay?

Scott Tillema: 00:33:32

Every, from the most famous, powerful people in the world to a unknown, nobody

Scott Tillema: 00:33:37

always ask, how did I do so remember.

Scott Tillema: 00:33:40

People want that validation and give that to 'em so we can give that on our own

Scott Tillema: 00:33:44

team, to our own negotiators and leaders.

Scott Tillema: 00:33:47

Hey, you're doing great.

Scott Tillema: 00:33:48

And that's little bit of confidence that they might need to get over the hill.

Scott Tillema: 00:33:52

And maybe it's the person that we're talking to.

Scott Tillema: 00:33:54

Hey, you know what?

Scott Tillema: 00:33:55

I.

Scott Tillema: 00:33:56

It, it took a lot of courage to just set that gun down.

Scott Tillema: 00:33:59

What you're saying, what you're doing now is really brave and give them that little

Scott Tillema: 00:34:03

bit of validation that they might need to move them in the direction because we make

Scott Tillema: 00:34:07

decisions based on emotion all the time.

Scott Tillema: 00:34:10

And I think that that's why the decision makers, we can't get them

Scott Tillema: 00:34:13

sucked into a negative emotion.

Scott Tillema: 00:34:15

We can.

Scott Tillema: 00:34:15

Come and present them.

Scott Tillema: 00:34:16

Here's what we have.

Scott Tillema: 00:34:17

We need your decision on this.

Scott Tillema: 00:34:19

And the last thing I want is for them to be involved in a heated conversation

Scott Tillema: 00:34:24

where they're gonna get triggered by something that was said, something

Scott Tillema: 00:34:26

that wasn't said, and now they're making a poor decision for the team.

Scott Tillema: 00:34:31

Because it's driven by emotion.

Scott Tillema: 00:34:33

We know people make decisions based on emotion.

Scott Tillema: 00:34:35

So let's use that rather than this old idea of let's separate

Scott Tillema: 00:34:39

the person from the problem.

Scott Tillema: 00:34:40

We're not gonna be able to do that.

Scott Tillema: 00:34:42

We are invested in this.

Scott Tillema: 00:34:44

And I think sometimes that's why if you can have a, a negotiator separate

Scott Tillema: 00:34:48

from that decision making process, that can be really powerful for

Scott Tillema: 00:34:51

you to say the decision maker here.

Scott Tillema: 00:34:53

We're, we're trying to be clear and all the emotions and that

Scott Tillema: 00:34:57

messiness of those conversations, we can kind of set that aside.

Scott Tillema: 00:35:00

But let's not forget that sometimes we, you and I, whoever

Scott Tillema: 00:35:05

is having this conversation, we know that this can be messy.

Scott Tillema: 00:35:08

We know that there's tough emotions involved and just be

Scott Tillema: 00:35:11

ready for that and understand that.

Scott Tillema: 00:35:12

And sometimes we just take a breath.

Scott Tillema: 00:35:17

And reset ourselves when we start getting taken down that hole to know,

Scott Tillema: 00:35:21

all right, I'm becoming emotional.

Scott Tillema: 00:35:22

This is normal.

Scott Tillema: 00:35:23

Everybody does this.

Scott Tillema: 00:35:25

And now let me try to reset.

Scott Tillema: 00:35:27

So I'm not hijacked in my brain with these negative emotions that are there

Scott Tillema: 00:35:31

because it is just we've evolved this way.

Scott Tillema: 00:35:33

This is what helps us stay alive.

Scott Tillema: 00:35:35

This fight or flight response that's helped us stay alive, but no one exists.

Scott Tillema: 00:35:39

So when we're reading that social media comment, that really makes us angry.

Scott Tillema: 00:35:43

No big deal.

Scott Tillema: 00:35:44

I got this, this is a normal reaction and I'm back in control of myself.

Scott Tillema: 00:35:48

And I think that if nothing else a lot of times people ask me, how can I.

Scott Tillema: 00:35:53

Deal with this other person, when we're called in to consult on a situation,

Scott Tillema: 00:35:58

how can I control this other side?

Scott Tillema: 00:36:00

He's really being a jerk or impossible or irrational.

Scott Tillema: 00:36:03

I say, listen, this might be scary to hear, but you might not be able to

Scott Tillema: 00:36:06

control the other side, but you know who you can't control as yourself.

Scott Tillema: 00:36:10

So let's begin by working on you and not worrying about the other side.

Scott Tillema: 00:36:16

And when people now have this other mindset shift of, I am in control

Scott Tillema: 00:36:21

of me, and this is kind of the extent of what I can truly control.

Scott Tillema: 00:36:26

Now, we start looking in the mirror and focusing inward and

Scott Tillema: 00:36:30

saying, what do I need to improve?

Scott Tillema: 00:36:31

What skills do I need to get better?

Scott Tillema: 00:36:33

Where am I gonna be triggered?

Scott Tillema: 00:36:35

And then we become really powerful because now I'm just focused on.

Scott Tillema: 00:36:39

I can get better.

Scott Tillema: 00:36:40

I can get stronger.

Scott Tillema: 00:36:42

The idea, the phrase that I can't no longer exist, it's now I choose not to.

Scott Tillema: 00:36:48

And that's a really, really scary thing to hear now instead

Scott Tillema: 00:36:51

of say, well, I can't do that.

Scott Tillema: 00:36:52

You, I choose not to do that.

Scott Tillema: 00:36:54

Try that on.

Scott Tillema: 00:36:55

How does that feel for you?

Scott Tillema: 00:36:56

Hmm.

Scott Tillema: 00:36:57

I am now empowered to make decisions that impact my life.

Scott Tillema: 00:37:01

And now you're just, you're becoming a really much more powerful,

Scott Tillema: 00:37:04

complete in control person.

Dallas Burnett: 00:37:06

Oh, I'd

Dallas Burnett: 00:37:07

love that.

Dallas Burnett: 00:37:07

Oh, I love that.

Dallas Burnett: 00:37:08

There's so much there.

Dallas Burnett: 00:37:09

So, you know, we are a big fan of recognizing team members and we talk

Dallas Burnett: 00:37:14

about that and I, and it would, it just resonated with me when you pass the note

Dallas Burnett: 00:37:17

over on record during a negotiation, just to say, man, you sound great because.

Dallas Burnett: 00:37:23

It's like, I love the word validation, validating and validation, because it's

Dallas Burnett: 00:37:27

like taking, it's like a, it's a, it's almost a form of recognition and it

Dallas Burnett: 00:37:31

has all these things rolled up into it.

Dallas Burnett: 00:37:33

Like you're understanding, cuz you're saying, look, I understand you're

Dallas Burnett: 00:37:36

building connection with your team member.

Dallas Burnett: 00:37:39

When you validate them, because you're saying, look, I understand how difficult

Dallas Burnett: 00:37:43

what you're doing is I got, I got respect for you and you're doing a great job.

Dallas Burnett: 00:37:49

And that validation, especially from somebody else in the

Dallas Burnett: 00:37:52

arena is so impactful.

Dallas Burnett: 00:37:55

And I mean, I'm sure that not only your teammate appreciated that.

Dallas Burnett: 00:37:58

But I'm sure that that is another way that you guys work together and that

Dallas Burnett: 00:38:01

makes your team just run so much more smooth because they can just take that

Dallas Burnett: 00:38:06

in and be like, I know he is got my back.

Dallas Burnett: 00:38:08

I know he is watching over my shoulder and I know that if I'm starting to

Dallas Burnett: 00:38:11

slip, if he's gonna, if he's gonna catch me doing something right.

Dallas Burnett: 00:38:14

Then I can listen to him when he catches me doing something wrong or

Dallas Burnett: 00:38:17

something I can do better, you know?

Dallas Burnett: 00:38:19

And so I just think when you're putting things in the bank, people

Dallas Burnett: 00:38:22

don't realize that when you talk about connection, we're, we're adding to

Dallas Burnett: 00:38:25

that bank balance so that if we need to take a draw and we need to say,

Dallas Burnett: 00:38:29

Hey, we need to have this conversation.

Dallas Burnett: 00:38:31

There's something else we need to talk about.

Dallas Burnett: 00:38:32

And that's more of a corrective action or more of improvement or

Dallas Burnett: 00:38:35

something that they're missing some gap in their awareness that you have.

Dallas Burnett: 00:38:39

You have enough built up in the bank of relational capital

Dallas Burnett: 00:38:43

where you can say, I, I do that.

Dallas Burnett: 00:38:44

And one of the ways I think you did, you just, just home run with

Dallas Burnett: 00:38:48

that was talk about validation.

Dallas Burnett: 00:38:50

We're gonna meet them where they are.

Dallas Burnett: 00:38:51

And we're gonna tell 'em thanks.

Dallas Burnett: 00:38:53

We're gonna tell 'em you did a great job and and we're not telling we're not, we're

Dallas Burnett: 00:38:56

not, I think people misunderstand that.

Dallas Burnett: 00:38:58

You're what you said was you were not, you were not validating

Dallas Burnett: 00:39:03

something that was inaccurate.

Dallas Burnett: 00:39:05

Some people's like, well, I'm not gonna walk around.

Dallas Burnett: 00:39:06

Just tell people they're doing good just to tell people just cuz

Dallas Burnett: 00:39:08

that yeah, that's exactly right.

Dallas Burnett: 00:39:10

Cuz you're gonna know you're being a fake.

Dallas Burnett: 00:39:11

What you did was you noticed you were in the moment and noticed that

Dallas Burnett: 00:39:15

person, that they were doing a good job and then you had the initiative

Dallas Burnett: 00:39:18

to go and validate that behavior.

Dallas Burnett: 00:39:19

And I think that we missed that so many times if we wanna live in the last

Dallas Burnett: 00:39:24

10%, if we want our teams to perform in the last 10%, that is a key component.

Dallas Burnett: 00:39:30

Is absolutely validating people for the work that they do not.

Dallas Burnett: 00:39:33

And here's the amazing thing that you did it wasn't you got to the end, you

Dallas Burnett: 00:39:37

guys went out on a debrief and you were like, Hey, I noticed you did a great job.

Dallas Burnett: 00:39:42

You did it in the moment, like while it was happening, you slid the note over.

Dallas Burnett: 00:39:47

That's why it got put on record is cuz you literally did it during the negotiation.

Dallas Burnett: 00:39:51

And man, I, I just think that's awesome.

Dallas Burnett: 00:39:53

It's much more powerful if we validate in the moment than if we wait two

Dallas Burnett: 00:39:57

weeks and say, Hey yeah, I remember remember back in two weeks ago.

Dallas Burnett: 00:40:00

Yeah.

Dallas Burnett: 00:40:00

I really appreciate that.

Dallas Burnett: 00:40:01

You did a good job.

Dallas Burnett: 00:40:02

No, no.

Dallas Burnett: 00:40:02

Just catch it right there in the moment.

Dallas Burnett: 00:40:04

And the other thing is I thought when you talked about self-awareness

Dallas Burnett: 00:40:09

that piece where people actually.

Dallas Burnett: 00:40:11

Understand and can start to be aware of their own emotions.

Dallas Burnett: 00:40:16

It was like, you know, if you can be self aware of your

Dallas Burnett: 00:40:20

reaction, you want to do that.

Dallas Burnett: 00:40:22

So you know how to control your response.

Dallas Burnett: 00:40:24

And that you can be in control of your response.

Dallas Burnett: 00:40:26

And I just, I love that.

Dallas Burnett: 00:40:28

I choose not.

Dallas Burnett: 00:40:29

I choose not to.

Dallas Burnett: 00:40:30

I mean, that's just so you're right.

Dallas Burnett: 00:40:31

That is so powerful because it puts you in the driver's seat.

Dallas Burnett: 00:40:34

It's not, it's not a victim, you're not a victim, you know, you're making, you're a

Dallas Burnett: 00:40:39

decision maker and you're choosing not to.

Dallas Burnett: 00:40:41

And I just think, man, that's so good.

Dallas Burnett: 00:40:43

Those are great.

Dallas Burnett: 00:40:44

That's just great stuff, man.

Dallas Burnett: 00:40:45

That's so great stuff.

Scott Tillema: 00:40:47

And, and one other piece here, you talk about putting

Scott Tillema: 00:40:50

these deposits in the bank with people.

Scott Tillema: 00:40:53

They are going to see that you actually care about them.

Scott Tillema: 00:40:57

It's not that we're.

Scott Tillema: 00:40:59

Only making these deposits that, Hey, this person cares about me

Scott Tillema: 00:41:03

and cares about my situation.

Scott Tillema: 00:41:05

And that's when we can really see things start to change as well.

Scott Tillema: 00:41:09

And sometimes I talk with people who are negotiating or are leaders and say,

Scott Tillema: 00:41:13

well, what if we don't care about them?

Scott Tillema: 00:41:15

My response is simple.

Scott Tillema: 00:41:16

You better care about them that if you're a leader and you're

Scott Tillema: 00:41:19

having these conversations, why don't you care about these people?

Scott Tillema: 00:41:22

If you're negotiating with somebody.

Scott Tillema: 00:41:24

And life or death situations.

Scott Tillema: 00:41:25

Why wouldn't you care about them?

Scott Tillema: 00:41:27

And if you don't care about them, maybe this, maybe you're not the right

Scott Tillema: 00:41:30

person to have this conversation, or maybe you're not the right person

Scott Tillema: 00:41:33

right now to have this conversation.

Scott Tillema: 00:41:36

So I think that's another powerful piece in connection that you really do have

Scott Tillema: 00:41:40

to care about the person, because that's going to also lead you to really good

Scott Tillema: 00:41:44

results.

Dallas Burnett: 00:41:45

Ah, I love that.

Dallas Burnett: 00:41:46

And I think that's so true.

Dallas Burnett: 00:41:47

I mean, if you're, if you're leading people.

Dallas Burnett: 00:41:50

and, and you can have just, you know, conversations without seeking

Dallas Burnett: 00:41:53

to understand without validation.

Dallas Burnett: 00:41:54

And you feel fine with that.

Dallas Burnett: 00:41:56

I think what you said is, look, man, you need to take a gut check and say,

Dallas Burnett: 00:41:59

Hey, am I, am I in the right spot?

Dallas Burnett: 00:42:01

Am I in the right seat on the bus?

Dallas Burnett: 00:42:03

Is this position?

Dallas Burnett: 00:42:03

Am I go because ultimately you're not gonna be successful or you

Dallas Burnett: 00:42:08

team is not gonna perform at the level that they need to perform at.

Dallas Burnett: 00:42:10

So I think that's awesome advice.

Dallas Burnett: 00:42:14

Well, well, Scott, thank you.

Dallas Burnett: 00:42:16

Tell us a little bit about tell us a little bit about your organization

Dallas Burnett: 00:42:18

and tell us a little bit about how people can get in touch with

Dallas Burnett: 00:42:21

you if they wanna book you for it.

Dallas Burnett: 00:42:22

Cuz you do you do keynote speaking all over the world.

Dallas Burnett: 00:42:25

I mean, I was just talking to, you got off a plane.

Dallas Burnett: 00:42:27

In fact, you, you know, the last time we were talking, you had just

Dallas Burnett: 00:42:30

got out of, I was inviting you back to Charlotte and you had an

Dallas Burnett: 00:42:33

experience in the Charlotte airport.

Dallas Burnett: 00:42:34

So it was not a good one you actually posted about on LinkedIn.

Dallas Burnett: 00:42:36

So tell us how we can get in touch and a little bit about

Dallas Burnett: 00:42:39

your Charlotte airport escapades.

Scott Tillema: 00:42:42

Yeah.

Scott Tillema: 00:42:43

Well, first of all I'd love to visit Charlotte again in a positive

Scott Tillema: 00:42:46

note, I was flying back from a negotiations conference and everything.

Scott Tillema: 00:42:50

Everything went badly.

Scott Tillema: 00:42:51

I spent the night sleeping on the floor at the airport because not only could we get

Scott Tillema: 00:42:54

the airplane, but we couldn't get an Uber, nobody could get a hotel room, all of us.

Scott Tillema: 00:42:59

So we, we were all stuck in that airport together.

Scott Tillema: 00:43:02

It was quite the night and I think that's becoming more common.

Scott Tillema: 00:43:04

But I want to come back and have a positive experience in Charlotte.

Scott Tillema: 00:43:07

So let's make that happen sometime soon.

Scott Tillema: 00:43:09

I would invite the listeners to check out the negotiations collective

Scott Tillema: 00:43:13

website, but we are talking about connection and personal connection.

Scott Tillema: 00:43:16

So how about this?

Scott Tillema: 00:43:17

If you're on LinkedIn, if.

Scott Tillema: 00:43:18

And you should be on LinkedIn.

Scott Tillema: 00:43:20

Connect with me on LinkedIn.

Scott Tillema: 00:43:21

I, I would love to hear from you say, Hey, I was listening to the last 10% podcast.

Scott Tillema: 00:43:25

Let's connect.

Scott Tillema: 00:43:26

Love to have a conversation with you.

Scott Tillema: 00:43:27

We can have a phone call or a zoom.

Scott Tillema: 00:43:29

I'm really interested in meeting people in this.

Scott Tillema: 00:43:32

Industry, and, and that are interested in leadership and doing great things

Scott Tillema: 00:43:37

because we learn from each other.

Scott Tillema: 00:43:38

I love the opportunity to hear from all of you.

Scott Tillema: 00:43:41

So let's just connect on LinkedIn and have a really personal conversation.

Dallas Burnett: 00:43:44

That's awesome.

Dallas Burnett: 00:43:45

That's very good.

Dallas Burnett: 00:43:46

Well, thank you, Scott again.

Dallas Burnett: 00:43:48

And thank you for sharing all your wisdom and insights.

Dallas Burnett: 00:43:50

This has been a fantastic conversation.

Dallas Burnett: 00:43:52

Great show.

Dallas Burnett: 00:43:53

Maybe we'll have you back.

Dallas Burnett: 00:43:55

And maybe, maybe we can get you into Charlotte on a better

Dallas Burnett: 00:43:58

on a better note real soon.

Dallas Burnett: 00:43:59

So thanks again, Scott.

Dallas Burnett: 00:44:01

And for being with us on the last 10%,

Scott Tillema: 00:44:03

keep up the good work Dallas.

Scott Tillema: 00:44:05

We appreciate you.

Scott Tillema: 00:44:06

Keep it up.