Episode 36

full
Published on:

3rd Oct 2023

Dimitris Xygalatas | The Psychology of Rituals - How They Provide Structure and Alleviate Anxiety

Today, we have a fascinating guest, Dimitris Xygalatas, a cultural anthropologist who delves into the intricate connection between our bodies and our behaviors. Dimitris conducted a groundbreaking study in Spain, aiming to explore intense rituals like fire walking.

Can you think of a ritual in your life? Maybe it's a birthday celebration, a wedding ceremony, or even how you prepare your morning cup of coffee. Rituals shape our identities and create bonds within groups. Can we use rituals to unite our team or organization and increase performance?

During the podcast, Dimitris shares his firsthand experiences, where he witnessed the power of rituals in bringing people together, creating community, and achieving greater performance.

So, get ready for an enlightening conversation as we dive into the world of rituals with Dimitris Xygalatas.

Purchase his book "Rituals" below:

https://www.amazon.com/Ritual-Seemingly-Senseless-Worth-Living/dp/0316462403

Connect with him on his website below:

https://www.xygalatas.com/

Mentioned in this episode:

1on1 App Information

https://www.thinkmovethrive.com/1on1-app/

Transcript
Dallas Burnett:

Hey, everybody.

Dallas Burnett:

We're talking to Demetrius Zygalatas today.

Dallas Burnett:

What an amazing guy.

Dallas Burnett:

He's an anthropologist that studies rituals all over the world, has some

Dallas Burnett:

incredible stories of firewalkers and why seemingly irrational

Dallas Burnett:

behaviors drive our success.

Dallas Burnett:

He's a great new friend of mine.

Dallas Burnett:

You don't want to miss this incredible conversation.

Dallas Burnett:

Welcome, welcome, welcome.

Dallas Burnett:

I am Dallas Burnett, sitting in my 1905 Koch Brothers

Dallas Burnett:

barber chair in Thrive Studios.

Dallas Burnett:

But more importantly, we have an amazing guest, somebody I have been

Dallas Burnett:

so looking forward to getting on the show for like three months.

Dallas Burnett:

We've had him on the calendar for a long time.

Dallas Burnett:

He's a world traveler.

Dallas Burnett:

He's seen amazing cultural rituals.

Dallas Burnett:

He's got a PhD in anthropology.

Dallas Burnett:

Welcome to the show, Demetrius!

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Hi, Dallas.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

It's great to be with you.

Dallas Burnett:

Oh, man.

Dallas Burnett:

so I've got to share with the listeners how this came about because

Dallas Burnett:

it's a unique is a unique story on how you came to be on the last 10%.

Dallas Burnett:

We get recommendations, people reaching out to us to share guests

Dallas Burnett:

that they'd like to have on the show.

Dallas Burnett:

And we also get we also get former guests that, that, that give us ideas

Dallas Burnett:

and recommendations, but this show is special because I found your work on

Dallas Burnett:

this, this subject and the book Rituals.

Dallas Burnett:

I read it and I was so blown away at the insights that you have laid

Dallas Burnett:

out on this topic and this subject.

Dallas Burnett:

I was like, We got to get this guy on the show.

Dallas Burnett:

we have got to get this guy on the show.

Dallas Burnett:

So I actually reached out to you and was like, man, can you make the last 10%?

Dallas Burnett:

So we're so thankful that you are on the show today and made some time for us.

Dallas Burnett:

I'm so excited about this conversation.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Well, thanks for having me.

Dallas Burnett:

So some of the listeners may be wondering exactly what is an

Dallas Burnett:

anthropologist and what do they do?

Dallas Burnett:

Tell us a little bit about what anthropology is and what you do.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Yeah.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Broadly speaking, anthropologists, study human nature.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Of course, that is very broad and, and indeed there are many

Dimitris Xygalatas:

shades of anthropologists.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

most people, since the, the first Indiana Jones movie came out, most people think

Dimitris Xygalatas:

of anthropologists as, uh, archaeologists.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And, and those are, some anthropologists do that.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Some anthropologists study human nature in the past through, the

Dimitris Xygalatas:

artifacts that, that they left us or, through, whatever they can dig up.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

But I'm the other kind of anthropologist.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

I'm a cultural anthropologist.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So I studied human cultures in contemporary settings.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So I studied living people.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And in fact, I'm even in that respect, I'm a bit different than most cultural

Dimitris Xygalatas:

anthropologists in the sense that I combine psychological perspectives and

Dimitris Xygalatas:

I combine experimental perspectives with what we call participant observation.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So I still go to the field and I spend years in different field settings.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Just living with local people and trying to get a sense of

Dimitris Xygalatas:

what they do, and why they do it.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

But at the same time, I tried to bring experimental methods and measure things.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So as they do the things that they do, I try to do things like bring

Dimitris Xygalatas:

wearable technologies to see what their emotional reactions are or to find

Dimitris Xygalatas:

ways of quantifying their behavior and how they interact with one another.

Dallas Burnett:

That's one of the things about your work that I found

Dallas Burnett:

to be so interesting was that you were combining so many different aspects.

Dallas Burnett:

It was like you just said, the technology piece.

Dallas Burnett:

I thought you were so clever in how you were capturing data.

Dallas Burnett:

It was really cool.

Dallas Burnett:

We'll talk about that more in the show, but also it was not, it was,

Dallas Burnett:

there was, there's a theoretical piece of it, but there's so much.

Dallas Burnett:

There was so much data that you collected in the moment on the ground with people

Dallas Burnett:

and so much time that you spent inside the culture and just getting to know

Dallas Burnett:

people, it was just so enlightening.

Dallas Burnett:

It's very fascinating.

Dallas Burnett:

So tell us what inspired you to get into the field of anthropology.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

I guess what my first inspiration was that just the people that

Dimitris Xygalatas:

I admire, the people who are my heroes and growing up in, in Greece, this was

Dimitris Xygalatas:

the time before the internet was widely available just a few years prior to that.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And we didn't have, we only had two or three television channels.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

There was no cable television in Greece at the time.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So the kinds of programs that I enjoyed watching as a kid were,

Dimitris Xygalatas:

things like, David Attenborough's.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

programs.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And then I would say I would watch people like Jane Goodall and Jack Cousteau.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And these people are not necessarily anthropologists, but what they had in

Dimitris Xygalatas:

common is that they were explorers.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

They liked getting out there in the real world and they liked combining

Dimitris Xygalatas:

different forms of knowledge.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So they would combine their own personal experience.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

some of them would talk to other, other people.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

They would observe things in the field in a real life setting, but they were

Dimitris Xygalatas:

also bringing scientific measurements.

Dallas Burnett:

That's really great.

Dallas Burnett:

I think that's awesome and that I love how that informed what you're doing now

Dallas Burnett:

and it also not just anthropology, but informed how you do anthropology, like

Dallas Burnett:

what, what

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And of course, another source of inspiration and

Dimitris Xygalatas:

I'm sure that this has been the source of inspiration for so many

Dimitris Xygalatas:

anthropologists was National Geographic,

Dallas Burnett:

Oh yeah.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

just looking at those colorful, glossy pictures and

Dimitris Xygalatas:

reading those stories about far away places and all those extraordinary

Dimitris Xygalatas:

rituals that really got me excited.

Dallas Burnett:

I was at a, I was at this place one time and they had, it

Dallas Burnett:

was an old bookstore or something.

Dallas Burnett:

They had these.

Dallas Burnett:

National Geographics, magazines.

Dallas Burnett:

They were still, they were for sale and it, the, there was two boxes of 'em.

Dallas Burnett:

They were just trying to get rid of them and they were all from like the

Dallas Burnett:

1980s which is all the ones I remember.

Dallas Burnett:

So I looked at 'em and they were like, I was like, oh, how much are these?

Dallas Burnett:

They're like, I don't know if you wanna take 'em, we'll do like $2.

Dallas Burnett:

I was like, $2 a piece.

Dallas Burnett:

They're like, no, for the two box.

Dallas Burnett:

I was like, yes.

Dallas Burnett:

Put 'em in my car.

Dallas Burnett:

So

Dimitris Xygalatas:

still, there's still a collection from the, I

Dimitris Xygalatas:

guess the late eighties and early nineties in my parents house.

Dallas Burnett:

So good.

Dallas Burnett:

So good.

Dallas Burnett:

So that's awesome.

Dallas Burnett:

all right.

Dallas Burnett:

So in your book, you make the statement that rituals are a true human universal.

Dallas Burnett:

Let's talk a little bit about rituals.

Dallas Burnett:

And when you say that rituals are a true human universal, what do you mean by that?

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Yeah.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

sometimes you hear the term universals.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

It's often hard to substantiate.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

But I think when it comes to ritual, there's no doubt.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

There's definitely no human society that we've ever documented, whether past or

Dimitris Xygalatas:

present, that didn't have any rituals.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

It is so pervasive that archaeologists sometimes turn to ritual when they

Dimitris Xygalatas:

want to determine whether a particular society can truly be called human.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

For example, did they bury their dead?

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Did they perform any kind of ritual actions?

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Because those actions also point to things like, our ability

Dimitris Xygalatas:

to, to have symbolic thought.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And our empathy and our ability to connect.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So some of the things that make us human,

Dallas Burnett:

That's incredible.

Dallas Burnett:

So they would actually use rituals to define as an archeologist,

Dallas Burnett:

define what human is in the past.

Dallas Burnett:

That's awesome.

Dallas Burnett:

I've not thought about that.

Dallas Burnett:

So let's talk about exactly what rituals are like.

Dallas Burnett:

How do you separate the idea of what a ritual is?

Dallas Burnett:

then say, a routine or a reminder, what makes rituals specifically different?

Dimitris Xygalatas:

yeah, that's a good point.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Because ritual is one of those terms that people use in all sorts of ways.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

It's used so much that they can mean different things to different people.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And that's okay.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

But when I study ritual, what I'm interested in, is pretty specific.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

and that means that when I'm comparing to other things like habits and

Dimitris Xygalatas:

routines, we can distinguish ritual because it has two key characteristics.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

I think one is that there's no causal relationship.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

between the action you undertake and the effect is it is meant to have if

Dimitris Xygalatas:

there is an effect in the first place.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So that's what we call causal opaqueness.

Dallas Burnett:

Okay.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And that means that some people say, brushing my

Dimitris Xygalatas:

teeth, is that my morning ritual?

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And I would say no, because that has a clear purpose and there's a direct causal

Dimitris Xygalatas:

relationship between what you do, how you use the brush and what you expect to do.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

But if I were to wave my toothbrush in the air every morning, either

Dimitris Xygalatas:

with the belief that it will clean my teeth or with no belief at all, just

Dimitris Xygalatas:

because, then that's a ritual for you.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And, and I think the other aspect that characterizes ritual is that ritual

Dimitris Xygalatas:

actions are perceived to be special.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

They're perceived to be, a lot of the time they're perceived to be sacred.

Dallas Burnett:

Yes.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

and that means that when our rituals

Dimitris Xygalatas:

are interrupted, we feel upset.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Sometimes when we feel morally upset, even.

Dallas Burnett:

Really?

Dallas Burnett:

Just like to feel that something's missing or that something's been taken away or

Dallas Burnett:

it's like we've the world's not right.

Dallas Burnett:

Something's got to be put back in place.

Dallas Burnett:

I think that's a very interesting way to describe rituals because I think

Dallas Burnett:

when you talk about that toothbrush example, it's funny, but it's so true.

Dallas Burnett:

It's there, there are some things that you do, and it's I think about the

Dallas Burnett:

athlete who's walking out of the locker room, and they're touching all the

Dallas Burnett:

signs on the walls, play great today, or you're a champion, or whatever.

Dallas Burnett:

they're touching that with the expectation that's giving

Dallas Burnett:

them some kind of mental edge.

Dallas Burnett:

And yet, it's if you really look at that, it's like, What, you've been

Dallas Burnett:

practicing for like three months in the off season and you're going to

Dallas Burnett:

weight room and getting up at five in the morning and do all this stuff.

Dallas Burnett:

And then you're like, nope, if I don't touch this sign or where, different

Dallas Burnett:

colored socks on the way out the door, like things are not right.

Dallas Burnett:

Not that is true.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And since you mentioned sports is a great domain

Dimitris Xygalatas:

to observe spontaneous rituals.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

private, personal rituals.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And in fact, there are studies that show that, elite athletes

Dimitris Xygalatas:

tend to have more rituals.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

You might expect they would have fewer because they, there's more skills that

Dimitris Xygalatas:

they would rely more on their skill.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

In fact, they have more rituals.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And we believe that the reason is that they compete for higher stakes.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So it's those kinds of environments, high pressure, high uncertainty

Dimitris Xygalatas:

environments that breed ritualization.

Dallas Burnett:

the more, the higher the stakes and the higher the.

Dallas Burnett:

Uncertainty the more so it's almost like you could say like a stressful, the

Dallas Burnett:

more stress, stressful, the environment, the more likely that would be a, an,

Dallas Burnett:

a breeding ground for more rituals.

Dallas Burnett:

Is

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Exactly.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And this is why you also see a lot of personal rituals in the casino.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And this is actually something that we have tested experimentally.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So we have done experiments where we stress people up.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And then we quantify their behavior.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

We use motion sensors to see how they move.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And we see that their behavior becomes more rigid, more patterned.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

It becomes like a ritual.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

It becomes redundant.

Dallas Burnett:

So I remember in your book, I think it mentioned

Dallas Burnett:

that, something like that.

Dallas Burnett:

There was a study on how in Israel, how the closer they were to like

Dallas Burnett:

an area that was, dangerous on the borders there was women in that area

Dallas Burnett:

that would have more rituals that, that was very interesting to me.

Dallas Burnett:

that's, it's not intuitive necessarily why you would think like you would,

Dallas Burnett:

that there would be a difference.

Dallas Burnett:

It would be like this.

Dallas Burnett:

Person or society or these things with certain rituals, but then to

Dallas Burnett:

say no ones that are going through high stress would actually have more.

Dallas Burnett:

that's very interesting.

Dallas Burnett:

What is it about rituals that draw us as humans to them

Dallas Burnett:

and make us want to do them?

Dallas Burnett:

Because we said this kind of a breeding ground when we're

Dallas Burnett:

in a stressful environment.

Dallas Burnett:

But what is it about rituals that draw us into that?

Dallas Burnett:

That make us want to do that?

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So rituals are very successful, social technologies.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And the reason they're so successful is that they're able to trigger multiple

Dimitris Xygalatas:

cognitive mechanisms at the same time.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So let's take one of them at a personal level.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And that's, I think we have to look at this because for, in order to get to

Dimitris Xygalatas:

cultural rituals, in order to get to group rituals, as you mentioned, ritual has to

Dimitris Xygalatas:

be attractive to us at a personal level.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Now, what draws us to, to ritual?

Dimitris Xygalatas:

and the theory we're proposing, with my colleagues is that

Dimitris Xygalatas:

rituals, help our brain.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Find the sense of order now, the way our brain works is that our brain is

Dimitris Xygalatas:

a predictive machine It keeps making predictions about the state of the world

Dimitris Xygalatas:

before I finish my sentence your brain Already has a prediction about what is

Dimitris Xygalatas:

going to come out of my mouth next and if it doesn't then it gets confused and this

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Kind of predictive coding happens all the time, whether it's about our perception,

Dimitris Xygalatas:

what we see, let's say, if we, my window has bars, right now, and my brain makes

Dimitris Xygalatas:

up the missing information, perceives a complete image and so on and so forth.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And that means that because of this architecture, which is a very adaptive,

Dimitris Xygalatas:

very useful, cognitive architecture, if I have low predictive capacity,

Dimitris Xygalatas:

so if I don't know what's going to happen next, then I get stressed, we

Dimitris Xygalatas:

experience anxiety and what's the best.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

One of the best ways to alleviate anxiety is to get a sense of structure and order,

Dallas Burnett:

Hmm.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

To allow your brain to make predictions, to

Dimitris Xygalatas:

anticipate what's going to happen, even if it's another domain.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And that was, that's what ritual offers, because if ritual is

Dimitris Xygalatas:

anything, it is structure.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

When you're performing a ritual, you know exactly what to do.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

You know exactly how to do it.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

You know exactly when it's supposed to happen.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So that gives your.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

your brain has sense that you're on top of things.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

You're in control of things.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

You know exactly what to do.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

There's no more uncertainty.

Dallas Burnett:

Ah,

Dimitris Xygalatas:

does that solve your problem directly?

Dimitris Xygalatas:

The stressor?

Dimitris Xygalatas:

No, it does nothing for the stressor, but if it helps you relieve

Dimitris Xygalatas:

anxiety, it can help you achieve your outcomes in an indirect way.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And in fact, that's what we see, for example, in other studies with

Dimitris Xygalatas:

athletes where we see that athletes who perform pregame rituals,

Dimitris Xygalatas:

they perform better in the game.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

That doesn't happen through any kind of magical causation that happens because

Dimitris Xygalatas:

they're better able to boost their confidence and they lower anxiety.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And if you prevent them from doing those rituals, then they begin, it throws

Dimitris Xygalatas:

them off and then they perform worse.

Dallas Burnett:

that's incredible.

Dallas Burnett:

I love how you summarize that.

Dallas Burnett:

And it makes sense when you apply it to those stressful environments

Dallas Burnett:

because like you're saying, if we're predicting, if we're going in into an

Dallas Burnett:

environment of unpredictability and our brain is trying to predict things,

Dallas Burnett:

then that in that inherently is going to create anxiety because we can't

Dallas Burnett:

achieve what we're wanting to achieve, in the sense that we can see around

Dallas Burnett:

corners and understand that environment.

Dallas Burnett:

So it's almost like we almost, we perceive it as more in our control,

Dallas Burnett:

because we've done this thing that is very orderly and timely and all

Dallas Burnett:

that stuff in that same environment.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Yeah.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And this, and this too is something that we can actually measure.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So we've done studies in both in the lab where we measure people's cortisol levels,

Dimitris Xygalatas:

and we'll see that there's a correlation between how many, rituals they, they

Dimitris Xygalatas:

take part in and their stress levels.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So there are people who take part in more collective rituals.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

They have.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Lower levels of stress.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And then we go out into the real world and we went into Hindu

Dimitris Xygalatas:

temples in Mauritius and we measure people's physiological responses.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

We see that after performing their usual rituals, their heart rate

Dimitris Xygalatas:

variability increases, which shows that they're better able to cope

Dimitris Xygalatas:

with stress in those environments.

Dallas Burnett:

You've seen rituals all over the world and you write

Dallas Burnett:

about a lot of those in your book.

Dallas Burnett:

What are some of the most impressionable rituals that you

Dallas Burnett:

have experienced with people or seen

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Yeah.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So I've seen a lot of rituals around the world, but some of the most

Dimitris Xygalatas:

impressive ones for me are definitely, some that include body mortification.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

One of those rituals is the type of Samkavati, it's a Hindu ritual.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

It's a Tamil Hindu ritual.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So it's performed in Southern India, Sri Lanka, but also anywhere where you

Dimitris Xygalatas:

find members of the Tamil diaspora, which is pretty much around the world.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

This ritual even happens in, neighborhoods of Toronto and New York.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

But where I studied it, it's massive.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So there are about a hundred, temples, having processions on the same day.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And this is the Island of Mauritius in the Indian ocean.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And this ritual involves, it's essentially a long pilgrimage to

Dimitris Xygalatas:

honor Lord Muruga, a Hindu deity.

Dallas Burnett:

Okay.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

But on the way to the temple, and this pilgrimage

Dimitris Xygalatas:

may last for three, four, six, eight hours, depending on the context.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And On the pilgrimage, people carry these large structures called kavadi

Dimitris Xygalatas:

and that, that actually means burden in the Tamil language and they're

Dimitris Xygalatas:

decorated with, with feathers and flowers and there's a lot of symbolism

Dimitris Xygalatas:

going on there related to Lord Murugan.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So they're very heavy and we've done studies where we measured the

Dimitris Xygalatas:

size and the weight of those kavadi.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Some of them can weigh well over a hundred pounds.

Dallas Burnett:

Oh

Dimitris Xygalatas:

carry these for six hours under the midsummer tropical sun.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So this is January, February in the southern hemisphere.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

without having any, food or anything to drink.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And then when they reach the temple, they have to climb 242 steps,

Dimitris Xygalatas:

carrying them up to the temple.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

But that's not even the beginning of their suffering.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Because before they, they embark in this procession, they begin

Dimitris Xygalatas:

to have their body pierced.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And some of them, most of the women will have one piercing through

Dimitris Xygalatas:

the tongue or through the, cheeks.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And this is a needle, a long needle made of silver.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

This symbolizes a vow of silence, but some of the men, they

Dimitris Xygalatas:

can have hundreds of needles.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Some of them can have their entire body pierced except for the genitals.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And it gets even worse than that because some of them have hooks through

Dimitris Xygalatas:

the skin of their backs by which they drag these enormous chariots so

Dimitris Xygalatas:

they can be the size of a small bus.

Dallas Burnett:

They're pulling them with the hooks in their

Dimitris Xygalatas:

yes they are.

Dallas Burnett:

Oh.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

then some of them have long skewers the size of

Dimitris Xygalatas:

broomsticks pierced through their cheeks.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And they can be so long and heavy that they have to bite on them

Dimitris Xygalatas:

and hold them with two hands.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Otherwise, they will rip their face off.

Dallas Burnett:

Ah.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So yeah, I can see your face now, your reactions.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

it's something that is not easy to watch.

Dallas Burnett:

oh, man.

Dallas Burnett:

and they will do this for, they will experience this carrying the object and

Dallas Burnett:

then all these piercings for, you said up to six hours as they proceed on this

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Yeah, this goes on for half a day or

Dallas Burnett:

and they're doing this with all the other people, like

Dallas Burnett:

everybody else is carrying these things and going through this at the same time,

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Yes, there are several hundreds of people in every procession,

Dimitris Xygalatas:

doing this actively, being pierced.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And then there's many more.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Walking alongside family members who are not peers, but they're, you can really see

Dimitris Xygalatas:

the emotional contingent in that context because their loved ones are also crying,

Dimitris Xygalatas:

they, they vicariously suffer with them.

Dallas Burnett:

Oh man, so they're not, it's not like a parade where you think

Dallas Burnett:

of it where there's like these bystanders on the street cheering everybody on.

Dallas Burnett:

It's more like

Dimitris Xygalatas:

No, not at all.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

It's a, it's not a carnivalesque type of ritual.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

it's a very solemn procession and people take it very seriously.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

every once in a while, people begin to fall into, to trance.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And when this happens, again, you can see the emotional contagion.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

I think when the first person starts, then there's the person next to them

Dimitris Xygalatas:

is more likely to start as well.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And they start swirling to the music and then they start, dancing with

Dimitris Xygalatas:

all that weight on their shoulders.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And

Dallas Burnett:

they

Dallas Burnett:

start dancing with, while they're carrying this big, heavy burden and

Dallas Burnett:

they've carried it for all this time.

Dallas Burnett:

And they go into what you say is a trance

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Yes.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And this, in this context, dancing is mostly circling around.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

You can imagine if you're carrying a hundred pounds on your shoulders,

Dimitris Xygalatas:

you're constrained in your movements.

Dallas Burnett:

goodness gracious.

Dallas Burnett:

And this is every year they do this every year.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Correct.

Dallas Burnett:

Oh my goodness.

Dallas Burnett:

So let's talk about that a little bit, because you collect data, not only

Dallas Burnett:

from the participants in the ritual, but also from the spectators or the

Dallas Burnett:

people that are on the peripheral of that, what are some of your findings

Dallas Burnett:

related to people's experience?

Dallas Burnett:

Like how, what's the experience of the person actually doing the ritual, whether

Dallas Burnett:

that's carrying this load, this burden in this procession or walking on fire.

Dallas Burnett:

And then the experience of the people that's actually watching it.

Dallas Burnett:

Tell us a little bit about that.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

This was one of the most exciting things that we

Dimitris Xygalatas:

have found out with those studies.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So in one context, and this is a small village in Spain

Dimitris Xygalatas:

called San Pedro Manrique.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

They have fire walking rituals every once every year on the summer solstice.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Again, the hottest part of the year in that part of the world.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

they have this festival of San Juan and that culminates with a big firework.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So at midnight, everybody gathers at this big venue.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

that have built specifically for this purpose, and there are thousands of

Dimitris Xygalatas:

spectators that have come from nearby villages and a group of men and women

Dimitris Xygalatas:

will walk through burning embers.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And those are when I say burning embers, we measure the temperature at 1200 degrees

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Fahrenheit, which is actually enough to melt aluminum and they will walk there

Dimitris Xygalatas:

barefooted and while carrying somebody on their back, they carry another person.

Dallas Burnett:

Oh,

Dallas Burnett:

see, I've always wondered that I've not experienced the fire walk

Dallas Burnett:

before, but I've seen people do it and they spread these coals out on

Dallas Burnett:

the sand and you just run through it.

Dallas Burnett:

And I'm like, I don't know if that's, but this is real deal.

Dallas Burnett:

Like they 1200 degrees.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

I have seen many fire walking rituals in my life, but

Dimitris Xygalatas:

that one is quite something else.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

The intensity of that fire and the intent, they intentionally use oak wood,

Dimitris Xygalatas:

which burns at a very high temperature.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

so that surface is, and it's very, the surface is deep as well.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So it produces this very high temperature and just standing near

Dimitris Xygalatas:

it feels like you're opening an oven and your face gets roasted.

Dallas Burnett:

Oh, my goodness.

Dallas Burnett:

it just seems like everybody that's going to do this is going

Dallas Burnett:

to have is massive injuries.

Dallas Burnett:

do they know that kind of going into it?

Dallas Burnett:

and they're just like, I'm okay with that.

Dallas Burnett:

I'm going to have some,

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So in, in fact, most people don't get burned while firewalk.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And there's a physical explanation for this.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

coal is a very poor conductor,

Dallas Burnett:

okay.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

analogy that I've come across is, baking bread in the oven.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So if you open your oven and stick your hand inside it and touch the bread

Dimitris Xygalatas:

as it's baking for one second, you're probably not going to get a burn.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

You will feel the heat, it'll be very hot.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

But if you touch the metal plate for the same duration, you will get a serious

Dallas Burnett:

You'll get a burn.

Dallas Burnett:

Oh,

Dimitris Xygalatas:

that matter, the air inside the oven is at the same temperature

Dimitris Xygalatas:

the moment just before you open it.

Dallas Burnett:

Oh man.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

and that means that you can have a short period of

Dimitris Xygalatas:

contact with it without getting burned.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Obviously, if you were to stand on the coals.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

But having said that, just because it's possible to do it and not get burned

Dimitris Xygalatas:

doesn't mean that it's guaranteed.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

In fact, there are many ways to get burned.

Dallas Burnett:

And,

Dallas Burnett:

to just the psychological perspective of looking and

Dallas Burnett:

feeling the heat, like you said,

Dallas Burnett:

I mean, you, you, you feel it on your face, your whole body is hot

Dallas Burnett:

and you're looking at these burning coals and you've got to walk across,

Dallas Burnett:

psychologically that has got to be.

Dallas Burnett:

A real, I don't know, that's intense, man.

Dallas Burnett:

That's gotta be, especially with thousands of people and you got

Dallas Burnett:

somebody on your back that is, you're setting up a pretty intense

Dimitris Xygalatas:

It is very intense.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And that's the kinds of things we're measuring.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So when we look at these people's heart rates right before going into the fire

Dimitris Xygalatas:

and as they're walking through the fire, their heart rates reach levels that we,

Dimitris Xygalatas:

I didn't personally think were possible.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Things like 240 beats per minute.

Dallas Burnett:

What?

Dimitris Xygalatas:

we looked at the maximal medically accepted level of

Dimitris Xygalatas:

arousal, most of these people were above it, which means that they were

Dimitris Xygalatas:

in risk of having a heart attack.

Dallas Burnett:

oh my goodness.

Dallas Burnett:

Oh, that's incredible.

Dallas Burnett:

And that's not, that's not necessarily because they've done this massive

Dallas Burnett:

amount of physical activity before.

Dallas Burnett:

That's just anxiety, like intensity producing heart rate.

Dallas Burnett:

Like you're

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Absolutely.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Because especially in that context, they are actually seated and

Dimitris Xygalatas:

they're waiting for their turn.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

They're not engaged in any kind of physical activity

Dimitris Xygalatas:

right before the firework.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So we're going to know that this is just stress

Dallas Burnett:

The highest heart rates are happening and they're

Dallas Burnett:

not even walking over the fire yet.

Dallas Burnett:

There, this is like right before

Dallas Burnett:

they go

Dimitris Xygalatas:

at the moment, right before entering the fire.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

That's the highest.

Dallas Burnett:

a, Oh my goodness.

Dallas Burnett:

so you're in this environment, you've got all these spectators,

Dallas Burnett:

you've got 1200 degree.

Dallas Burnett:

firewalking going on.

Dallas Burnett:

what are you seeing you?

Dallas Burnett:

So their heart rates are ridiculous right before they start walking.

Dallas Burnett:

What happens when they hit what, what happens when they hit the firewalk?

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So what we were interested in seeing was whether we could

Dimitris Xygalatas:

see emotional alignment in this ritual.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And this relates to anthropological theories that talk about

Dimitris Xygalatas:

how these rituals, create a sense of social cohesion.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

It's very common and the people that I studied with, that I work with, they

Dimitris Xygalatas:

kept telling me that the way it feels when you go through the fire, it feels

Dimitris Xygalatas:

like you become one with the crowd.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

There, there are so many people there, but you feel like one.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And this really echoed some anthropological theories about the way

Dimitris Xygalatas:

these rituals create social cohesion.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

It's by the alignment of people's emotions.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

If we all feel like one, feel the same way, then we also feel like

Dimitris Xygalatas:

we're more bonded and more similar.

Dallas Burnett:

Yes.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

what we were testing.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And that's why we collected measurements both from the fire walkers, but

Dimitris Xygalatas:

also from people who are watching.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And we made sure to have, people of different who had different

Dimitris Xygalatas:

kinds of relationships there.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So we had their friends and family, but we also had.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Outsiders who just arrived there.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

There's so many curious tourists who come to witness this.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And what we found was that first of all, we saw an extraordinary degree

Dimitris Xygalatas:

of synchrony during that ritual.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So not only those who walked on fire, but also those who are waiting for their turn.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Those who are just sitting there and watching their heart

Dimitris Xygalatas:

rates began to synchronize.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

But this Only extended to the members of the community.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So the outsiders, the tourists, we didn't see any kind of synchrony with them.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And in fact, we're able to predict the level of synchrony based on

Dimitris Xygalatas:

their degree of connectedness.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So your closest friends, your close family would be more synchronous

Dimitris Xygalatas:

through their vicariously.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

through their vicarious suffering, alongside you compared to more

Dimitris Xygalatas:

distant friends and relatives.

Dallas Burnett:

and when you say synchrony, like you mean your heart

Dallas Burnett:

rate or your, how do you, how do you

Dimitris Xygalatas:

In this case, we're looking at heart rate.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So we're looking at how their heart rates go up and down at the same time.

Dallas Burnett:

So they're tracking, their heart rates are tracking together.

Dallas Burnett:

So the

Dallas Burnett:

more connected you are in an experience like this, the more you experience it

Dallas Burnett:

essentially the same way as the person that's actually doing the ritual.

Dallas Burnett:

you would feel that same.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

and that results into, more bonding.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And we have seen this in other studies where we looked at, sports fans, we looked

Dimitris Xygalatas:

at spectators in basketball games, and through an entire season, we measured

Dimitris Xygalatas:

their physiological reactions to the game.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And we see that it is during those games that people's reactions to the game.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Heart rates are more closely synced than people have.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

They have a better experience with the game and more meaningful experience.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And they also feel more bonded with each other.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

When their heart rates, when their physiological reaction,

Dimitris Xygalatas:

when their emotional reactions are more synchronous, more

Dallas Burnett:

and more synchronized.

Dallas Burnett:

So when you actually feel that it's almost like you can, I could see

Dallas Burnett:

that because there's been games that you go to and you're like,

Dallas Burnett:

you can, it's almost palpable.

Dallas Burnett:

Like you can feel this energy in the, in everybody's it's, I don't

Dallas Burnett:

know if I don't explain that.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

I know exactly what you mean because

Dallas Burnett:

Yeah.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

and it's very hard to explain.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And this is the, this is exactly the point, why we did all these measurements.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Because all of these anthropological theories were talking about this.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Ineffable feeling.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

There's something that is very hard to describe, but people experience

Dimitris Xygalatas:

they some people, describe it as a jolt of electricity or a goose

Dimitris Xygalatas:

bumps at the back of your neck.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And that's how I feel when I go to my home, team's stadium and, to watch a game

Dimitris Xygalatas:

of football, what you call soccer here.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And I chant with 30, 000 people.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

I do get goose bumps.

Dallas Burnett:

it's incredible, but it.

Dallas Burnett:

But you know, when you ask that, and I try to describe it.

Dallas Burnett:

It's not easy to describe.

Dallas Burnett:

It's just like what you said, like I could describe it.

Dallas Burnett:

It feels like a, almost like a dance or energy or, lightning

Dallas Burnett:

bolt, like you said, or goosebumps, I've had all that when you're, you

Dallas Burnett:

just feel like you said in sync.

Dallas Burnett:

So it's fascinating that, and you, and the more connected you are,

Dallas Burnett:

the more in sync that you are.

Dallas Burnett:

So you can almost see.

Dallas Burnett:

who's in the community because they're in it with everybody else.

Dallas Burnett:

I would think that's like reinforcing, because the more you experienced that,

Dallas Burnett:

it would seem like the more connected and aligned you are and the more bonded.

Dallas Burnett:

And so it's I don't know, that's fascinating.

Dallas Burnett:

All right.

Dallas Burnett:

So you also found some interesting relationships that are not.

Dallas Burnett:

Uh, it's just surprising to me, like you, you described that ritual

Dallas Burnett:

earlier that people were getting piercings and suffering a great

Dallas Burnett:

deal, but you found some surprising relationships about pain and rituals.

Dallas Burnett:

Tell us a little bit about that.

Dallas Burnett:

Like what, what have you found in that category?

Dimitris Xygalatas:

this was so after we did this study in Spain, I wanted

Dimitris Xygalatas:

to find that context, an appropriate natural context where I was, that

Dimitris Xygalatas:

would allow me to study what we find in the body extends to behavior.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Because it's one thing to say if we think that these rituals make people

Dimitris Xygalatas:

more bonded It's one thing to look at their heart rates But it's another thing

Dimitris Xygalatas:

to see whether their behavior actually suggests that they're more pro social

Dimitris Xygalatas:

within that community And that was what brought me to mauritius that was what

Dimitris Xygalatas:

led me to study those rituals that I described that are even more painful

Dimitris Xygalatas:

than fire walking so in the context of that ritual that involves body piercing

Dimitris Xygalatas:

and all kinds of forms of suffering.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

We set up a charity, that was administrated by

Dimitris Xygalatas:

local research assistance.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So people didn't know that it was us who are behind this,

Dimitris Xygalatas:

and we looked at how much money people donated after performing

Dimitris Xygalatas:

a painful ritual or less painful ritual or no ritual at all.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And this was members of the same community going to the same temple

Dimitris Xygalatas:

between those two rituals in the context of the same festival.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

But some of these rituals are high intensity.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Some of them are low intensity.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So we're interested in seeing how the same people would react

Dimitris Xygalatas:

after each one of those events.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And we see that compared to the control.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So So, charity, donations collected outside of any kind of temple of ritual

Dimitris Xygalatas:

context compared to that people who took part in a collective prayer,

Dimitris Xygalatas:

they gave almost twice as much.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

taking part in a collective ritual, increased pro social

Dimitris Xygalatas:

giving, increased generosity.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

But then looking at the very painful ritual, those people

Dimitris Xygalatas:

gave even, way more than that.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

they gave three times more than baseline.

Dallas Burnett:

so, so you're saying you guys were at this ritual in this kind

Dallas Burnett:

of community that's going through these rituals, this, at this time, you set up

Dallas Burnett:

a charity with locals and the charity is asking for donations after they finish

Dallas Burnett:

these rituals, and if you go through this kind of prayer time and it's fine and

Dallas Burnett:

it's good, but it's not very intense.

Dallas Burnett:

You're then asked for it and you give a certain amount and then if you go

Dallas Burnett:

through, maybe a more communal type, walk or whatever, then you give twice as

Dallas Burnett:

much as somebody that just had prayer.

Dallas Burnett:

But then if you actually are the one that's going through excruciating

Dallas Burnett:

pain and suffering, You give three times as much more to the charity.

Dallas Burnett:

See, that is not intuitive at all.

Dallas Burnett:

I just, that is, that's incredible.

Dallas Burnett:

Like,

Dimitris Xygalatas:

It is, it might not be, I think.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

it's not intuitive if you try to rationalize it, but it, but at

Dimitris Xygalatas:

some level we already know this.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And the reason one, fact that suggests that, is that when people are trying

Dimitris Xygalatas:

to organize, donations and charity events, what they do is that they,

Dimitris Xygalatas:

they do things like marathons.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

they don't do things like, a warm cup of cocoa.

Dallas Burnett:

Yeah.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Right?

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Remember the ice bucket challenge?

Dimitris Xygalatas:

It invited people to suffer

Dallas Burnett:

Oh I've not even thought about

Dimitris Xygalatas:

lot of money.

Dallas Burnett:

That's so true.

Dallas Burnett:

I didn't even think about that.

Dallas Burnett:

Oh, so you increase the suffering and it increases the participation.

Dallas Burnett:

It's Because you're almost, it makes sense because it's going back to what you said.

Dallas Burnett:

You're almost, you're engaging in becoming part of a community through

Dallas Burnett:

that suffering, and then you feel more connected and that particular community

Dallas Burnett:

has a cause or something like that.

Dallas Burnett:

And that's what's going on.

Dallas Burnett:

So

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And another interesting thing we see there is

Dimitris Xygalatas:

that in the context of that ritual on that day, it was not just the ones

Dimitris Xygalatas:

who suffered that gave more money.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

It was.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Also, their family and friends who were walking alongside the procession.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So again, those who suffer vicariously, they also became more processual.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So on those days, the entire community becomes more processual.

Dallas Burnett:

Oh my goodness.

Dallas Burnett:

So it wasn't just the one that it was everyone.

Dallas Burnett:

Like you said, vicariously, that is so interesting.

Dallas Burnett:

I think that was one of my favorite parts of the book, by the way, just

Dallas Burnett:

how you describe that in so much detail and the results I just, that was really

Dallas Burnett:

something that caught my attention.

Dallas Burnett:

I think that's really interesting too, because so many times I think we see.

Dallas Burnett:

Painful things as a negative.

Dallas Burnett:

And I think what your research has shown though, is that is the other side of that

Dallas Burnett:

coin is that there's very interesting social and internal benefits for us to

Dallas Burnett:

go through these painful things, even whether they're rituals or even not.

Dallas Burnett:

It just, it's almost like an awareness increase.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And once you start thinking about it, then you will see

Dimitris Xygalatas:

that, so there's this, psychologist, Paul Bloom, who, who talks about,

Dimitris Xygalatas:

how suffering can create meaning.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And if you think about it, some of the most meaningful things in our lives.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

The kinds of things that create meaning for us.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

They're the ones that involve suffering.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

They're the ones that involve a lot of effort and sometimes a lot of pain.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So you climbed Mount Everest.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

That's, that's something that you will cherish for the rest of your life.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

you raised four children.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Quite painful it can be.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

You won a championship.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

How much effort does that require?

Dimitris Xygalatas:

How much...

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Pain is there involved in this all of the things that we come to consider

Dimitris Xygalatas:

as the most meaningful in our lives They involve a lot of effort a lot

Dimitris Xygalatas:

of suffering and it's it is perhaps because of that we come to connect Pain

Dimitris Xygalatas:

and effort with meaning so we perceive things as more meaningful sometimes

Dimitris Xygalatas:

just because they're more effortful

Dallas Burnett:

Make more effort.

Dallas Burnett:

That is awesome.

Dallas Burnett:

I love that.

Dallas Burnett:

That's so good.

Dallas Burnett:

So we have a lot of listeners that are leading organizations, they're

Dallas Burnett:

leading teams, and that's their thing.

Dallas Burnett:

That's their grind.

Dallas Burnett:

That's their responsibility.

Dallas Burnett:

and on the last 10%, we love providing them information

Dallas Burnett:

that will help them be better.

Dallas Burnett:

Cause the last 10 percent it's all about finishing well, finishing

Dallas Burnett:

strong, living in that last time, doing the extra efforts and the extra

Dallas Burnett:

things to live in that last 10%.

Dallas Burnett:

And so I think rituals are so important.

Dallas Burnett:

We're actually, we've been talking about this book that we've got coming out.

Dallas Burnett:

And one of the reasons that your book was so intriguing to me is

Dallas Burnett:

because it's part of lift this new business fable coming out.

Dallas Burnett:

We have a section in there that is speaking to rituals as it relates

Dallas Burnett:

to work and business and how it's so important to include those in as.

Dallas Burnett:

As something that will help build and move and strengthen culture

Dallas Burnett:

of an organization or team.

Dallas Burnett:

If you're thinking about that, as it relates to your research, what would

Dallas Burnett:

you, what ideas or how would you speak to that as a way people could do

Dallas Burnett:

that at their work or in their teams.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Yeah, this is something I see that the business

Dimitris Xygalatas:

world is increasingly aware of up until a few decades ago.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So the society I grew up in as a, as a kid and then as a teenager,

Dimitris Xygalatas:

it was fundamentally different.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

View of work than what is what we have now and that was that you work.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

You're not supposed to enjoy work You're not supposed to derive meaning from

Dimitris Xygalatas:

your work You just go in you put in your hours and then you punch out and

Dimitris Xygalatas:

you leave and that's It's okay to hate your work and whether and if you're

Dimitris Xygalatas:

a business owner, this is just a bad idea This is whether you see it from

Dimitris Xygalatas:

a Marxist perspective, the alienation of workers or a capitalist perspective

Dimitris Xygalatas:

how do I increase productivity?

Dimitris Xygalatas:

you want your, your employees to, to enjoy their work and you want

Dimitris Xygalatas:

them to derive a sense of meaning from it and a sense of community.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Otherwise you can't retain them, otherwise they won't be happy, they won't

Dimitris Xygalatas:

be productive and so on and so forth.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

and ritual is a par excellence, way of creating meaning.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

This was something that I realized when I moved from Greece to Denmark.

Dallas Burnett:

Ah.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

I went there as a student initially and later as faculty

Dimitris Xygalatas:

and it immediately struck me this difference between the workplace in

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Greece and the workplace in Denmark.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Now, Denmark happens to be one of the most productive countries on the planet.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

But to me, it just seemed that they weren't working all that much.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

They were just, they had all these kinds of rituals at the workplace.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So every morning we had, we would take a break at, at 10, a coffee break.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And then at lunch, we'd all do lunch together.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And the reason I'm referring to those things as rituals is that

Dimitris Xygalatas:

sometimes they were not even...

Dimitris Xygalatas:

There was not even a functional purpose.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

That means that even if you already had lunch, even if you had brought

Dimitris Xygalatas:

your own lunch, you just, you didn't stay in the office and have lunch.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

You just joined everybody else.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Even if you weren't having lunch, so this wasn't about the lunch per se, right?

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And then every Friday, there was a Friday bar.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And then on Christmas, there was a big party and each unit of the organization.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So my department had a Christmas party and my unit had a Christmas party.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And of course they were not on Christmas.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

There were days earlier because you had to attend multiple ones.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And this was, I could see that for the Danes, this was something sacred.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Like nobody missed the Christmas party at work.

Dallas Burnett:

Really?

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And then there was, there was singing and there was, playing

Dimitris Xygalatas:

games and drinking and all kinds of things, all kinds of pageantry at the same

Dimitris Xygalatas:

level that you would have at a family, at your biggest family, holiday gathering.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And that's exactly the reason, because those kinds of celebrations

Dimitris Xygalatas:

create a sense of family.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And in a successful community, in a well bonded community, you need

Dimitris Xygalatas:

both of those types of rituals.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

You need the regular kinds of rituals, your morning ritual or

Dimitris Xygalatas:

your lunch ritual that provide this sense of collective identity.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And the, the reminders of the, the group's goals and values and insignia, but then

Dimitris Xygalatas:

you also need this high arousal rituals.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Every once in a while you want the big party where everybody.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Comes to, increase their heart rates, whether that's playing a game of

Dimitris Xygalatas:

paintball as a group of whatever this ritual becomes for your team.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

You also need this intense level of bonding, which produces a sense

Dimitris Xygalatas:

of, family at the end of the day, because if you think about it, who

Dimitris Xygalatas:

is, who are the people in your family?

Dimitris Xygalatas:

These are the people you experience strong emotions with the people you laugh with

Dimitris Xygalatas:

the people you cry with, the people you participate in those important flamboyant.

Dallas Burnett:

Right.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

social theorists have even gone as far as to say that any kind

Dimitris Xygalatas:

of social group is only truly a group when they perform a collective ritual.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And if you think about this, when are the members of an extended

Dimitris Xygalatas:

family, ever together as a group?

Dimitris Xygalatas:

At a wedding, at a funeral, at Thanksgiving.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

When are the members of a college body together at a graduation ceremony?

Dimitris Xygalatas:

When are the fans of a team ever together in the stadium performing

Dimitris Xygalatas:

these collective chanting rituals?

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Ritual creates, actively, it doesn't only symbolize.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Group membership.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

It actively creates it.

Dallas Burnett:

I think that.

Dallas Burnett:

It's absolutely incredible and so awesome.

Dallas Burnett:

I've never thought about the defining a group by the rituals

Dallas Burnett:

and really how the actual groups are assembled around the rituals.

Dallas Burnett:

And it's so true.

Dallas Burnett:

Like extended family.

Dallas Burnett:

You just said it.

Dallas Burnett:

I, that's that is so true.

Dallas Burnett:

Even like fans on sports, we're getting together and we're

Dallas Burnett:

seeing as those fans when we get together for , that sporting event.

Dallas Burnett:

I think that's amazing.

Dallas Burnett:

If you're leading a team, I think the challenge today that I'm hearing

Dallas Burnett:

is if you're leading a team, if you're leading an organization or a

Dallas Burnett:

company, and you haven't taken the time to be intentional about ritual.

Dallas Burnett:

In your team organization, then what you're doing is you're leaving the

Dallas Burnett:

connectedness and the bonding and the alignment of your organization up to

Dallas Burnett:

something that's not very intentional.

Dallas Burnett:

And it may be good.

Dallas Burnett:

It may not be good, but I can assure you that intentionality and

Dallas Burnett:

focus is going to make it better.

Dallas Burnett:

So with that, Dimitris, do you feel like there's a recipe for a good ritual?

Dallas Burnett:

Cause you said two different kinds of rituals there.

Dallas Burnett:

You said there's one kind that's more of the.

Dallas Burnett:

the daily ritual, I'll say that's the waving the toothbrush in the air ritual,

Dallas Burnett:

and then there's the one that is the more of the firewalking ritual, which

Dallas Burnett:

is to get your heart rate up and it's a spectacle, is if someone was wanting to

Dallas Burnett:

be more intentional about that and they said, I want to be more intentional,

Dallas Burnett:

create a ritual or have a ritual.

Dallas Burnett:

Yeah.

Dallas Burnett:

What's the recipe look like?

Dallas Burnett:

how does one go about doing

Dimitris Xygalatas:

I think it's not easy.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So I think the best way to go about it is to rely on accumulated cultural wisdom.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So the turn to other traditions.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And to do that, you have to be open to the idea that, that ritual, both

Dimitris Xygalatas:

predates and extends far beyond religion.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So it's not about religion.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

What I mean by that is that in my family, for example, we're not religious

Dimitris Xygalatas:

and we never had a Christmas tree.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

But

Dallas Burnett:

hmm.

Dallas Burnett:

Mm.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

when my son was born a few years ago, we decided we're

Dimitris Xygalatas:

going to have a Christmas tree and we're going to have these rituals.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

It's not about, Christianity.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

It's about family.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

and, so in that sense, the best types of rituals to, to develop are

Dimitris Xygalatas:

the ones based on established ones.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Every single day, there will be a million different rituals that are

Dimitris Xygalatas:

born, and most of them will not be around next week or next month.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

The ones that have survived this process of cultural selection are the

Dimitris Xygalatas:

ones that clicked with individuals, the ones that were most successful

Dimitris Xygalatas:

in, in, in doing things like creating meaning and alleviating anxiety.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So those that have been around for ages.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

I would start with those.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And then, of course, you have to tweak those.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

You have to fit your own company culture or your family or whatever group it

Dimitris Xygalatas:

is you're trying to, to use them in.

Dallas Burnett:

that's, I love it.

Dallas Burnett:

It's almost like they've passed the test of time.

Dallas Burnett:

And so if they've passed it by sticking around, by being more sticky through,

Dallas Burnett:

through different generations, then you can know that those are more powerful

Dallas Burnett:

and more meaningful because it's been more meaningful throughout time.

Dallas Burnett:

But, I love that.

Dallas Burnett:

That's a, that's great advice.

Dallas Burnett:

This is, we're going to get into some more personal stuff here.

Dallas Burnett:

So you studied rituals for a long time.

Dallas Burnett:

And you've looked at a lot of different places, but you've heard

Dallas Burnett:

the saying that if you get too close to the fire, you might get burned.

Dallas Burnett:

So tell us about a time, because I love the story in the book.

Dallas Burnett:

Tell us about a time where you went to study a ritual, but then the

Dallas Burnett:

professor turns into the participant.

Dallas Burnett:

Tell us a little bit about what happened there.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Yes.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

I like how you phrase that.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

That was in a very literal sense what happened.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

for many years, I, so I did my doctoral dissertation

Dimitris Xygalatas:

studying fire walking rituals.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

I went to Greece at a small village called a year Lenny.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And, I spent several months there just talking to the locals and getting their

Dimitris Xygalatas:

stories and doing ethnographic work.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

and I finished my PhD and then I went to study another

Dimitris Xygalatas:

fire walking ritual in Spain.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And that's when I started introducing.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

other types of, methods.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So the measurements there, and eventually I went to Mauritius.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So by that time I had seen many fire walking rituals, but I had

Dimitris Xygalatas:

never taken part in any of them.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

the reason was, one reason was that in the other contexts in which I had studied

Dimitris Xygalatas:

those rituals, I would not be allowed.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So in Spain, it was only strictly for the locals in Greece.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

it was a bit broader, but it was only for people who were, True believers

Dimitris Xygalatas:

and that there was a process of, getting accepted into the group and I

Dimitris Xygalatas:

didn't want to pretend to be somebody.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

I wasn't so I never attempted to do any of those rituals.

Dallas Burnett:

sure.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

But in Mauritius, the local community was

Dimitris Xygalatas:

very welcoming from the beginning.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And at some point.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

As I was watching the preparations for what was going to be the first fire

Dimitris Xygalatas:

walking ritual I was going to see in Mauritius, some of the locals, there

Dimitris Xygalatas:

was a, there was an evening where I was looking at the preparations and then I

Dimitris Xygalatas:

noticed that people were staring at me.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And...

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And at some point, then they waved at me to come closer.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

I said, hi, what?

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And they said, you know what?

Dimitris Xygalatas:

We've been thinking Dimitris.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

and I could tell this was not going to lead to anything

Dimitris Xygalatas:

good the way they said it.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

They said, we've been thinking, you've been.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

with us for all these months, you're now part of the community.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And to which I tried to say, I don't want to pretend to be an insider.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

I'm just here, to watch and learn from you.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

It's also important for me to maintain some sort of distance in

Dimitris Xygalatas:

order to be able to take notes and, pictures and so on and so forth.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

But they said, since you're now part of this community.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

You should try the firework as well.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So I politely tried to decline the invitation.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

then, somebody said something like, if God wants you to do it, then you will do it.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And I said, trust me, Prakash, God does not want me to walk on

Dimitris Xygalatas:

fire, but apparently I was wrong.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

apparently God did want me to walk on fire.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So on the day of the ritual, and this was all forgotten, I went back, home

Dimitris Xygalatas:

and, I told my wife, at the time, my, my girlfriend, who was with me in the field,

Dimitris Xygalatas:

about it, and we all, laughed about it, we said, ah, it was a joke, and we forgot

Dimitris Xygalatas:

it, but then on the day of the ritual, they allowed me to be inside the enclosure

Dimitris Xygalatas:

and to take pictures and notes, and I was really, Fascinated by what, by everything

Dimitris Xygalatas:

that was happening around me and the sounds and the colors and the emotions.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And I was trying to take good pictures and to this day, some of the best

Dimitris Xygalatas:

pictures that I got from, of this, event were, was from that particular year.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And at some point, somebody taps on my shoulder and they say,

Dimitris Xygalatas:

that's a better spot for you.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

I say, oh, really?

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Can I go that close?

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And I say, yeah, go ahead.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So I went there and I kept taking my pictures.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And a while later, there's another top of my shoulder and, I look up and it's

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Prakaast again and he says stand up.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So I stand up and he Say what and he goes turn around And I turn around and the

Dimitris Xygalatas:

entire village is looking at me and I'm sitting and I'm realizing only that moment

Dimitris Xygalatas:

that I'm standing in front of the fire

Dallas Burnett:

Oh,

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And he just whispered something in my ear.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

I think he said Now you will know what the fire Really is like

Dallas Burnett:

Oh,

Dimitris Xygalatas:

something something along those lines at that point it was

Dimitris Xygalatas:

either total humiliation and disruption to the ritual or just Going ahead with it.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So I the only Thing I could say was please hold my camera and I went through with it.

Dallas Burnett:

Oh, now you've had technology, you've taken pictures,

Dallas Burnett:

everything's at arm's distance, you've described, the synergy and how in sync

Dallas Burnett:

everyone is through it, but at this point you literally are walking the walk

Dallas Burnett:

through the fire.

Dallas Burnett:

How would you describe that as, how would you describe that differently than you

Dallas Burnett:

have in experiencing it in other ways?

Dallas Burnett:

Was it what you expected or was there something else?

Dimitris Xygalatas:

It was both so in the sense that the first thing to say here

Dimitris Xygalatas:

is that's exactly why anthropologists talk about participant reservation

Dimitris Xygalatas:

because you can witness something You can record something a hundred times But

Dimitris Xygalatas:

then once you do it yourself, you just get a taste of the other thing Just you

Dimitris Xygalatas:

come to see what people meant they were describing that so hundreds of people

Dimitris Xygalatas:

had described that moment to me But going through that moment One thing I realized

Dimitris Xygalatas:

it was that, okay, yes, they're right.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

A lot of the things they said resonated with me.

Dallas Burnett:

Hmm.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

As you go through the fire, you go into this slow motion mode.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Like it feels it's only it only lasts a few seconds, but it feels like several

Dimitris Xygalatas:

minutes and your peripheral vision gets completely blurred out There's

Dimitris Xygalatas:

nothing around you, you know, there are hundreds of people around you, but it's

Dimitris Xygalatas:

just You and the moment and the fire

Dallas Burnett:

Oh

Dimitris Xygalatas:

then as soon as you step out of It's like waking up

Dimitris Xygalatas:

from a dream and then you suddenly you see people around you and they're

Dimitris Xygalatas:

rushing to congratulate you or hug you or talk to you And it's only then that

Dimitris Xygalatas:

you realize what had just happened.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And of course your body reacts in all those funny ways.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And I always had one of my monitors on myself because I'm pretty sure that

Dimitris Xygalatas:

my heart rates were well above 200.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Uh, And you feel the adrenaline rush and you feel your hormones rushing

Dimitris Xygalatas:

through your body and all that, although it's a few seconds, you

Dimitris Xygalatas:

have time to actually feel that.

Dallas Burnett:

You feel it all.

Dallas Burnett:

You do feel that you experienced that in slow motion as you go over the fire.

Dallas Burnett:

Oh man.

Dallas Burnett:

Oh man.

Dallas Burnett:

That is, That's incredible.

Dallas Burnett:

I'm so glad that you did that.

Dallas Burnett:

I'm so glad that they, that they did it because that was

Dallas Burnett:

such a cool part in the book.

Dallas Burnett:

and it was a very, it was very surprising because you the way that you wove that

Dallas Burnett:

in, it was like, you've talked about all this stuff and then it's oh, and

Dallas Burnett:

then there was this that happened.

Dallas Burnett:

And I thought that was just, that was well done.

Dallas Burnett:

And, so at the end of the book, you talk about harnessing or how to harness

Dallas Burnett:

the power of rituals in your own life.

Dallas Burnett:

How would you, for our listeners today, maybe they're leading a team, but they

Dallas Burnett:

want to harness that in their own life.

Dallas Burnett:

Do you have any other parting wisdom for people that are just wanting to do this?

Dallas Burnett:

And whether they're maybe not even for work, just for themselves, what

Dallas Burnett:

would you offer to those people, to how to harness that power of rituals?

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So one thing to say and to repeat here is that

Dimitris Xygalatas:

ritual extends far beyond religion.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So a lot of the time when I talk to, when I talk to my students, for example,

Dimitris Xygalatas:

when I ask them, do you have any regular rituals, any rituals that you perform

Dimitris Xygalatas:

on a regular basis, many of them say no.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And then we get into, okay, what is a ritual?

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Do you attend birthday parties, weddings and funerals?

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Do you raise your glasses to make a toast?

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Do you have any superstitions?

Dimitris Xygalatas:

if you're practicing sports and so on and so forth, and of course all

Dimitris Xygalatas:

of them have an abundance of rituals.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

to that, I would say, just embrace this, but also try to think about

Dimitris Xygalatas:

what types of rituals work best, in, in different situations.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So is that, is that a stressful time for you?

Dimitris Xygalatas:

a lot of people already perform rituals.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

They don't even think of them as rituals.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So they do things like meditation and yoga, and they might do them.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

intentionally for stress relief or unintentionally, but they

Dimitris Xygalatas:

have the same kinds of outcomes.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

another advice in the era of the digitalization of everything

Dimitris Xygalatas:

and remote connections.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Keep in mind that we know this from personal experience, all of us know

Dimitris Xygalatas:

this, but we also know it from our experiments that the, the physical

Dimitris Xygalatas:

co presence in a collective ritual.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

That embodied sort of embedded experience.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

There's nothing like it.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

This, COVID was the best demonstration of this.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

People started coming up with all kinds of online rituals.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

On the one hand, that showed how essential ritual is to our lives.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Some people risk their, their lives or the risk fines, or there is

Dimitris Xygalatas:

a lot of things just to attend a funeral or a wedding, but others

Dimitris Xygalatas:

substituted those with, online rituals.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And of course that, that is better than nothing.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

But we know from our studies that, attending a ritual in person

Dimitris Xygalatas:

is fundamentally different than attending a ritual, online, virtually.

Dallas Burnett:

Oh.

Dallas Burnett:

Interesting.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So seek that, that, physical co presence.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Seek that collective participation.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

that's part of what makes those rituals effective team building devices.

Dallas Burnett:

I think that is fantastic advice.

Dallas Burnett:

You have to be in the room.

Dallas Burnett:

You got to be in the room.

Dallas Burnett:

you got to be in the room to, to really, truly experience the power and

Dallas Burnett:

the connectedness and the alignment and, and the community that it brings.

Dallas Burnett:

I love that.

Dallas Burnett:

I love that man.

Dallas Burnett:

This has been.

Dallas Burnett:

Fantastic.

Dallas Burnett:

This has just been awesome.

Dallas Burnett:

I am, I just cannot tell you how much I appreciate your time and all

Dallas Burnett:

the wisdom that you've shared around rituals and their importance in,

Dallas Burnett:

in, in our experience and our lives and how they can bring us together.

Dallas Burnett:

And I think.

Dallas Burnett:

What a great message post COVID, I think that we've had so many people

Dallas Burnett:

that, we've seen studies on, how anxiety has gone up and how depression

Dallas Burnett:

rates have gone up through the COVID time because of this separation.

Dallas Burnett:

And I just think that your message about rituals and their importance

Dallas Burnett:

and how they build community is it's so needed and it's a

Dimitris Xygalatas:

COVID was actually the best natural demonstration of the

Dimitris Xygalatas:

need for ritual because you had this paradox where it was, this conundrum

Dimitris Xygalatas:

where it was precisely at the time that an entire generation, that was the

Dimitris Xygalatas:

most stressful moment of their lives,

Dallas Burnett:

Mm

Dimitris Xygalatas:

and that was the time where that they

Dimitris Xygalatas:

were deprived of those rituals.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And at the same time, there was this need for connection

Dimitris Xygalatas:

again for the entire generation.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

There was never a moment where people needed more human connection, and that was

Dimitris Xygalatas:

precisely the moment where they couldn't have it because of the restrictions.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So that was the best natural demonstration of the need for ritual.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

And the fact that people went out of their way to take part in those rituals or to

Dimitris Xygalatas:

create new rituals or to find innovative ways of celebrating their rituals.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

They were Italian towns where people were, creating bamboo.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

poles with wine glasses attached to their ends so they would reach out

Dimitris Xygalatas:

across their balconies across the street And make a toast with one another

Dimitris Xygalatas:

because that's a very simple thing that make them feel like human again

Dallas Burnett:

Yeah, it's just, it brings people back together.

Dallas Burnett:

Hey, this was, we would normally toast.

Dallas Burnett:

We're not going to let this stand.

Dallas Burnett:

Even if we have to stay in our own place, we're going to toast across the cross.

Dallas Burnett:

I love that.

Dallas Burnett:

I didn't know that.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

you can understand that your balcony you can say hi to

Dimitris Xygalatas:

your neighbor, but the very simple physical acts Of being connected

Dimitris Xygalatas:

through, through, through true glasses that touch each other.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So even this symbolic act of touching was fundamentally important to those people.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

It made them feel truly connected.

Dallas Burnett:

Man, that is so good.

Dallas Burnett:

again, I think your message resonates with a lot of people and I hope that

Dallas Burnett:

a lot of people will share and listen to this episode because of that, and

Dallas Burnett:

I think that if you're leading a team.

Dallas Burnett:

If you're leading an organization, you really need to be intentional

Dallas Burnett:

about creating that connectedness and rituals and meaning in people's work.

Dallas Burnett:

I think purposelessness in work it's very detrimental . No matter what

Dallas Burnett:

perspective you are, if you lose purpose in your work and meaning in

Dallas Burnett:

your work, it's not going to be good, for your team, your organization.

Dallas Burnett:

So use, use rituals to be intentional about that.

Dallas Burnett:

And I know if you've listened to this show, you've gotten a lot

Dallas Burnett:

of great tips on how to do that.

Dallas Burnett:

All right.

Dallas Burnett:

So we're getting to the end now.

Dallas Burnett:

So we always ask the guests at the last 10%, we always say.

Dallas Burnett:

Who is someone that you would like to see or hear on the last 10%?

Dallas Burnett:

So is there anybody that comes to mind, for you that you would like

Dallas Burnett:

to hear be a guest on the show?

Dimitris Xygalatas:

I actually think you would, you would really enjoy

Dimitris Xygalatas:

discussing with my friend, Paul Bloom.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

I mentioned him earlier and I can see you're, you're, you're

Dimitris Xygalatas:

very excited about those topics.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

among many other things, he talks about how people create meaning and sometimes

Dimitris Xygalatas:

they create meaning through suffering.

Dallas Burnett:

Ah, okay.

Dallas Burnett:

All right.

Dallas Burnett:

So we're going to have to get connected with Paul.

Dallas Burnett:

We'll have to get him on, see if we can get him on the last 10%.

Dallas Burnett:

So yeah, that, that sounds awesome.

Dallas Burnett:

That sounds like another great discussion.

Dallas Burnett:

I'm going to, I'm going to tell him that, Demetrius talked us into

Dallas Burnett:

it after telling us about, pulling carts with hooks in our back.

Dallas Burnett:

So we, at that moment, it was like, all right, we got to have you on.

Dallas Burnett:

all right.

Dallas Burnett:

So let's, if people want to get in touch with you, they want to

Dallas Burnett:

interact with you about rituals, about maybe buying your book.

Dallas Burnett:

how do you want people to reach out and, or buy your book?

Dallas Burnett:

Where can they find that?

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Well, you can find my book, pretty much anywhere

Dimitris Xygalatas:

at Barnes and Nobles, Amazon.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

if you speak another language, it's been translated into 10 languages.

Dallas Burnett:

Wow.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

if you want to reach out personally, I have

Dimitris Xygalatas:

the great benefit of having one of the rarest last names in America.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

So,

Dallas Burnett:

ha ha ha ha ha ha

Dimitris Xygalatas:

so if you type my last name, you will find me.

Dallas Burnett:

Perfect.

Dallas Burnett:

All right.

Dallas Burnett:

We'll put some of those links to his books and Amazon Barnes Noble on the

Dallas Burnett:

show notes and we'll make sure that you can find where you can find Demetrius.

Dallas Burnett:

If you want to reach out to him or follow him on social media, we'll make

Dallas Burnett:

sure that you have that opportunity to do that in the show notes because

Dallas Burnett:

his work is so impressive and very interesting and very needed.

Dallas Burnett:

So Demetrius, thanks again for being on the last 10 percent today.

Dallas Burnett:

This has been a pleasure.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

I had a lot of fun.

Dimitris Xygalatas:

Thank you.

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About the Podcast

The Last 10%
Inspiring People, Coaching Teams, and Improving Cultures
Join The Last 10% for incredible conversations that help uncover the secrets of what it takes to finish well and finish strong. Our guests share their journeys, hardships, and valuable advice. We release new episodes every other Tuesday. If you are a leader, a coach, a business owner, or someone looking to level up, you are in the right place!

You can give 90% effort and make it a long way. But it’s the finding out how to unlock the last 10% that makes all the difference in your life, your relationships, and your work.

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Dallas Burnett