Episode 79

full
Published on:

16th Sep 2025

Tony Miltenberger | Embracing Wounds: Unleashing Leadership Potential through Vulnerability

In this episode of The Last 10%, host Dallas Burnett interviews Tony Miltenberger, an author, executive coach, veteran podcaster, and pastor. They discuss Tony's diverse experiences from military deployments to resilient family-building and his personal journey through life's challenges. The conversation highlights the importance of embracing wounds to unlock leadership potential, integrating core values into daily life, and the profound impact of vulnerability and faith. Tony underscores the power of identifying and understanding personal wounds for improved self-awareness and leadership effectiveness. The episode is a deep dive into conscious leadership, emotional intelligence, and practical wisdom for leaders striving to make a meaningful impact.

Check out Tony's new book: Wisdom in the Wound

Follow Tony on Instagram: @TWMILT

Transcript
Dallas Burnett:

Hey, everybody.

Dallas Burnett:

We're talking to Tony Miltenberger today.

Dallas Burnett:

What an amazing guy.

Dallas Burnett:

He's an author, an executive coach, veteran podcaster, and a pastor who's

Dallas Burnett:

turned life's deepest pains into pathways for purpose and leadership.

Dallas Burnett:

He has some incredible stories from military deployments to building

Dallas Burnett:

resilient families while overcoming his own personal challenges.

Dallas Burnett:

He's a great new friend of mine.

Dallas Burnett:

You don't want to miss this incredible conversation.

Dallas Burnett:

Welcome the last 10%.

Dallas Burnett:

Your host, Dallas Burnett, into incredible conversations that

Dallas Burnett:

will inspire you to finish well.

Dallas Burnett:

And finish strong.

Dallas Burnett:

Finish strong.

Dallas Burnett:

Listen, as guests share their journeys in valuable advice on living in the last 10%.

Dallas Burnett:

you are a leader, a coach, a business owner, or someone looking to level

Dallas Burnett:

up, you are in the right place.

Dallas Burnett:

Remember, you can give 90% effort and make it a long way, but it's finding

Dallas Burnett:

out how to unlock the last 10%.

Dallas Burnett:

That makes all the difference in your life, your relationships, and your work.

Dallas Burnett:

Now here's Dallas.

Dallas Burnett:

Welcome, welcome, welcome.

Dallas Burnett:

I am Dallas Burnett, sitting in my 1905 Koch Brothers

Dallas Burnett:

barber chair in Thrive Studios.

Dallas Burnett:

But more importantly, today, we have a great guest.

Dallas Burnett:

Tony Miltenberger is the author of Wisdom in the Wound and Founder

Dallas Burnett:

of Follow to Lead Coaching.

Dallas Burnett:

He's the host of a podcast with whoa, way more episodes than

Dallas Burnett:

the last 10%, 400 episodes.

Dallas Burnett:

That's insane.

Dallas Burnett:

And he is a dedicated disciple maker who's traveled the world from army

Dallas Burnett:

deployments to church consultations, all while being married for over

Dallas Burnett:

20 years and having three kids.

Dallas Burnett:

He is here to share.

Dallas Burnett:

How embracing our wounds unlocks the last 10% of leadership potential through faith

Dallas Burnett:

and vulnerability and practical wisdom.

Dallas Burnett:

Welcome to the show, Tony.

Tony Miltenberger:

Dallas, it is so good to be with you.

Tony Miltenberger:

Let's go.

Tony Miltenberger:

I'm fired up.

Tony Miltenberger:

That introduction was straight fire, dude.

Tony Miltenberger:

I love everything about it.

Tony Miltenberger:

Let's, let's get into some trouble.

Tony Miltenberger:

I'm, I'm here for all of.

Dallas Burnett:

it's just like an imposter syndrome.

Dallas Burnett:

'cause I feel like, man, I feel like I should just turn over the mic and

Dallas Burnett:

thrive and say, Hey, you just, you just run this show because you've

Dallas Burnett:

got such a history and podcasting.

Dallas Burnett:

This is really fun and I enjoy being on your show as well.

Dallas Burnett:

So this was really, really, really a treat,

Tony Miltenberger:

dude, when we met on, the Father Lead Podcast, I knew

Tony Miltenberger:

instantly that we were kindred spirits.

Tony Miltenberger:

I love your heart.

Tony Miltenberger:

I love what you do for the market.

Tony Miltenberger:

I love, all the things that you've got going through, through Thrive.

Tony Miltenberger:

And I just can't wait to see, I can't wait to see where we go today.

Tony Miltenberger:

It's gonna be fun.

Tony Miltenberger:

It's gonna be fun.

Dallas Burnett:

gonna be really fun.

Dallas Burnett:

All right, so I would love, we always start the show by giving the

Dallas Burnett:

listeners a taste of who the guest is.

Dallas Burnett:

So tell the listeners of who you are and how you got to

Dallas Burnett:

where you are and what you do.

Tony Miltenberger:

Yeah, so I, did not wanna do anything that I'm

Tony Miltenberger:

currently doing when I was a kid.

Tony Miltenberger:

So it's not like I was like, oh, I wanna grow up and do these things.

Tony Miltenberger:

Nope, that's not true.

Tony Miltenberger:

In my case, I enlisted in the Army Reserves right outta high school, and,

Tony Miltenberger:

uh, immediately knew I. I would've gone active duty, but I met this girl and

Tony Miltenberger:

she said, I'm not leaving Dayton, Ohio.

Tony Miltenberger:

And I was like, well, looks like I'm not leaving Dayton, Ohio either.

Tony Miltenberger:

We have since been married for, it'll be 23 years this February, and she

Tony Miltenberger:

still keeps me on the right path.

Tony Miltenberger:

Her name is Karen.

Tony Miltenberger:

We have three beautiful children, 19, 15 and 13.

Tony Miltenberger:

Two boys and a princess.

Tony Miltenberger:

The princess is the youngest, of course, when she was born, I.

Tony Miltenberger:

I pulled the boys aside and I said, Hey, whatever you do, protect

Tony Miltenberger:

your sister, protect your sister.

Tony Miltenberger:

And then she got to be about eight years old and I pulled the boys back

Tony Miltenberger:

aside and I was like, protect yourself.

Tony Miltenberger:

Warrior princess, warrior princess.

Tony Miltenberger:

So it's it's awesome.

Dallas Burnett:

That's awesome.

Dallas Burnett:

That's so great.

Dallas Burnett:

So great.

Tony Miltenberger:

You know, my greatest joy is being a dad to

Tony Miltenberger:

those three and a husband to Karen.

Tony Miltenberger:

And, I listened in the Army reserves.

Tony Miltenberger:

I knew the Lord had kind of just put on my heart about some ministry stuff.

Tony Miltenberger:

So I was a chaplain's assistant in the Army.

Tony Miltenberger:

I got, I got back from basic training and really did some sales work

Tony Miltenberger:

and kind of some nonprofit work.

Tony Miltenberger:

And then eventually I ended up at the church and and got to

Tony Miltenberger:

do some incredible church work.

Tony Miltenberger:

I was a lead pastor for seven years.

Tony Miltenberger:

Uh, the church that I was at was having a really hard time deciding

Tony Miltenberger:

what it wanted to be when it grew up.

Tony Miltenberger:

And so one day I got done preaching and I got out of the pulpit and I

Tony Miltenberger:

got a very clear direction from God.

Tony Miltenberger:

He said, you can stay or you can go.

Tony Miltenberger:

It's both gonna be hard.

Dallas Burnett:

Ooh.

Tony Miltenberger:

And I was like, that, that's dumb.

Tony Miltenberger:

Like

Dallas Burnett:

don't like

Tony Miltenberger:

where's the,

Dallas Burnett:

is this?

Tony Miltenberger:

yeah, where's the easy part?

Dallas Burnett:

Yeah.

Tony Miltenberger:

I would like to see, streets of gold here.

Tony Miltenberger:

And I that's when I started to begin to lean into consulting.

Tony Miltenberger:

And, I was sitting in front of a really inspirational Christian executive

Tony Miltenberger:

who I've known for a long time.

Tony Miltenberger:

And we were talking about what it means to run his business while also staying

Tony Miltenberger:

true to his values and his faith.

Tony Miltenberger:

And he looked at me and he said, Tony, why don't you charge me for this?

Tony Miltenberger:

I said, I said, Mike, I've never charged anyone for this.

Tony Miltenberger:

And he goes, I, I'm gonna tell you what, I paid my last

Tony Miltenberger:

coach, my last executive coach.

Tony Miltenberger:

And he, he shared with me the number.

Tony Miltenberger:

And, I was like, well, that's, that's a lot more than what I, you know, like I, I

Tony Miltenberger:

would just, my brain couldn't handle it.

Tony Miltenberger:

He goes, and he said, he said, the work that you and I are doing together is

Tony Miltenberger:

more valuable to me than that work.

Dallas Burnett:

Hmm.

Tony Miltenberger:

And so that day I went home and he was like, I think you

Tony Miltenberger:

should give this a shot and I'll help you.

Dallas Burnett:

That's gotta be pretty encouraging.

Dallas Burnett:

somebody, you're not even charging him, you're just out there with your time.

Dallas Burnett:

you're just helping a friend out, really in your mind.

Dallas Burnett:

You're just like, man, I'm sitting here, I'm talking to this guy.

Dallas Burnett:

I'm just helping, trying to help him walk and be a better version of himself.

Dallas Burnett:

And I'm just, and then all of a sudden he is like, Hey bro.

Dallas Burnett:

This is so good.

Dallas Burnett:

I just feel guilty if I don't pay yet.

Dallas Burnett:

So would you take a check?

Dallas Burnett:

And by the way, this is what I paid the last guy, and I'm

Dallas Burnett:

sitting there thinking, dang, yes.

Dallas Burnett:

Yeah.

Dallas Burnett:

I'm gonna help you do this, man.

Dallas Burnett:

That's awesome.

Dallas Burnett:

that's incredible.

Tony Miltenberger:

We created a, I created a Google form and I asked

Tony Miltenberger:

a bunch of questions about what you would do, what would you be open to

Tony Miltenberger:

working with a Christian executive, and what would you want to get out of it?

Dallas Burnett:

Hmm.

Tony Miltenberger:

just wanted to send it out as a survey, and so I

Tony Miltenberger:

sent it out to my network and then he sent it out to his network.

Tony Miltenberger:

And so that week, 50 people, took the survey and, at the end of the

Tony Miltenberger:

survey it said, would you like to, inquire more about Christian coaching?

Tony Miltenberger:

And, two people said, four people said yes, and two of those

Tony Miltenberger:

signed up as a client that week.

Dallas Burnett:

Oh my gosh.

Dallas Burnett:

gosh.

Tony Miltenberger:

and now I had the pucker factor was 10 because now

Tony Miltenberger:

I actually had to figure out what I was gonna do with those people.

Dallas Burnett:

They dunno what they just signed up for.

Dallas Burnett:

I dunno

Tony Miltenberger:

I

Dallas Burnett:

just signed up for.

Tony Miltenberger:

dunno what they signed up for.

Tony Miltenberger:

It's like, oh my gosh, I got, now I gotta coach these people.

Tony Miltenberger:

And, but you know, like, um.

Tony Miltenberger:

And the people who listen to this podcast know that the last 10% is the

Tony Miltenberger:

boldness that it takes to actually go and do something like that.

Tony Miltenberger:

It's the decision to step out in faith and say, okay, here I am.

Tony Miltenberger:

and you know what, the, um, out of those two clients, one of those

Tony Miltenberger:

clients still has me on retainer

Dallas Burnett:

Oh wow.

Tony Miltenberger:

two and a half years later now.

Dallas Burnett:

Oh, that's great.

Tony Miltenberger:

I.

Dallas Burnett:

Very good.

Tony Miltenberger:

I do not deserve the life I live, and I'm so thankful

Tony Miltenberger:

for all the doors that have been opened to me by so many people, right?

Tony Miltenberger:

That in, in coaching we call it an abundance mindset,

Dallas Burnett:

Yeah.

Dallas Burnett:

Yeah.

Tony Miltenberger:

and so like I just, you, you just can't

Tony Miltenberger:

out give the goodness of.

Tony Miltenberger:

The world and God and all the things that whatever it is that

Tony Miltenberger:

you believe in, you can't out.

Tony Miltenberger:

You can't out give it.

Tony Miltenberger:

And so being abundance mindset, you know, one of my core beliefs is generosity.

Tony Miltenberger:

And I just say all the time that I give my best stuff away for free.

Dallas Burnett:

Mm. That's great.

Dallas Burnett:

I mean, I love that and I, I think that's so true and I think that

Dallas Burnett:

people underestimate the power.

Dallas Burnett:

I was actually sitting when this was early on, think, move, thrive.

Dallas Burnett:

I don't even know if I had, yeah, I don't even know if I had named it or not yet.

Dallas Burnett:

Well, no, I guess I had.

Dallas Burnett:

just named it because I'd written the Move, the first book,

Dallas Burnett:

and I was excited about Move.

Dallas Burnett:

it's just like this, we're gonna talk about your book in a second.

Dallas Burnett:

You just get, you're jacked about the book.

Dallas Burnett:

you gotta

Tony Miltenberger:

Yeah.

Dallas Burnett:

put that much blood, sweat, and tears into

Dallas Burnett:

something you get so pumped about, you wanna share it with the world.

Dallas Burnett:

And I was sitting across the table and I met these guys.

Dallas Burnett:

Somebody had said, you need to meet these guys.

Dallas Burnett:

they need to hear, you need to read your book.

Dallas Burnett:

So I had given 'em a copy of.

Dallas Burnett:

Sent 'em a copy of Move before I met 'em.

Dallas Burnett:

They were further down the path.

Dallas Burnett:

They had some big clients they were working with, they were working with

Dallas Burnett:

a lot of different Chick-fil-A's and I'm like, man, if I could get

Dallas Burnett:

in with these guys, you never know.

Dallas Burnett:

Who knows?

Dallas Burnett:

And so I sent him the book and this guy sitting across the table and his older

Dallas Burnett:

fellow, his partner goes to the bathroom and he comes, he looks at me, he goes.

Dallas Burnett:

read your book and I love it.

Dallas Burnett:

I was like, oh, that's, you've read a lot of books.

Dallas Burnett:

you train on this stuff.

Dallas Burnett:

I was like, I really appreciate you saying that means a lot.

Dallas Burnett:

It's kinda like a guy from inside the industry

Tony Miltenberger:

Yeah.

Dallas Burnett:

dude, this is legit.

Dallas Burnett:

And I was like, yes.

Dallas Burnett:

And then he looks at me and it was like total deflation of like any kind.

Dallas Burnett:

I was just like, unbelievable.

Dallas Burnett:

He looked at me, he said, but you realize, man.

Dallas Burnett:

He goes, you really believe this stuff.

Dallas Burnett:

I was like, yeah.

Dallas Burnett:

He said, you realize that people don't change.

Dallas Burnett:

I mean, you know, people don't change.

Dallas Burnett:

Like you're talking, your book is titled Move you're telling

Dallas Burnett:

people how to be better.

Dallas Burnett:

He goes, but you know people don't really change.

Dallas Burnett:

they don't.

Dallas Burnett:

And I'm sitting there and I just looked at him and I was dumbfounded.

Dallas Burnett:

I was literally, I could, I said, wait a minute, let me, and I had

Dallas Burnett:

to repeat back to him what he said.

Dallas Burnett:

He is yeah, they don't, they don't, people, most people don't change.

Dallas Burnett:

And I was like.

Dallas Burnett:

Why are you doing your job?

Dallas Burnett:

What, what?

Dallas Burnett:

What are you doing?

Dallas Burnett:

Like what?

Dallas Burnett:

are in the wrong business, man, you know?

Tony Miltenberger:

I could not disagree more.

Dallas Burnett:

Yeah, I mean, I, and so literally that's exactly what I said.

Dallas Burnett:

I said, I just choose, I just don't believe that I believe

Dallas Burnett:

something completely different.

Dallas Burnett:

And, but to, to that point, I think people in general sometimes

Dallas Burnett:

underestimate the value of coaching and

Tony Miltenberger:

Mm-hmm.

Dallas Burnett:

you've been doing it for a lot longer because of, you've

Dallas Burnett:

been in the ministry, you've been in the military and all these things.

Dallas Burnett:

You've seen a lot, had a lot of experiences on that.

Dallas Burnett:

But I'd love to, to share because a lot of our listeners, have

Dallas Burnett:

experienced our coaching system.

Dallas Burnett:

We have the app.

Dallas Burnett:

Some of our listeners have experienced our coaching system, and

Dallas Burnett:

they've implemented that in their organization just because they wanted

Dallas Burnett:

to drive coaching further down.

Dallas Burnett:

an organization, but I would love to hear you just riff on your experience with

Dallas Burnett:

coaching and some of the development, not specific, but any kind of thing

Tony Miltenberger:

Sure.

Dallas Burnett:

you could speak to about some of the wins that you've

Dallas Burnett:

seen as a coach in that space.

Tony Miltenberger:

Yeah, so one of the things that I just really

Tony Miltenberger:

believe is that information by itself doesn't really change much.

Tony Miltenberger:

So the key is, and there's a formula, my, buddy Justin Gravitt who is with

Tony Miltenberger:

the navigators, we talk about this often and we say that information plus

Tony Miltenberger:

application equals transformation And I even, you know, information plus

Tony Miltenberger:

application equals transformation.

Tony Miltenberger:

So the problem is like I'm really good at consuming information, but

Tony Miltenberger:

where I need help is with application.

Dallas Burnett:

yes, yes.

Tony Miltenberger:

So the transformation part is actually just a result

Tony Miltenberger:

of the work of the two together.

Tony Miltenberger:

So I know a lot of the stuff.

Tony Miltenberger:

I have a coach myself, and I know a lot of the stuff that my coach is saying, but

Tony Miltenberger:

what I really need is I need that coach to ask me about it when we meet two weeks or

Tony Miltenberger:

a month from now, I need the application part, I need the accountability.

Tony Miltenberger:

I need a little skin in the game.

Dallas Burnett:

Hmm.

Tony Miltenberger:

so that idea, and so like one of the things that I love to

Tony Miltenberger:

do with clients that is transformational is values work, for example.

Tony Miltenberger:

So I, I believe that if you can identify your values, it can change your life.

Tony Miltenberger:

So my core four are faithful, grateful, generous, and movement right.

Tony Miltenberger:

So I wanna be faithful, grateful, generous and movement and the

Tony Miltenberger:

core four values by themself.

Tony Miltenberger:

They sound really good and they're great and I can rattle 'em off, but here's

Tony Miltenberger:

the work that most people don't see is I have a scorecard underneath them.

Dallas Burnett:

Nice going Ben Franklin on us,

Tony Miltenberger:

That's

Tony Miltenberger:

right.

Tony Miltenberger:

That's right.

Tony Miltenberger:

And so I know that faithful in my life means I go to the gym.

Tony Miltenberger:

Five times a week.

Tony Miltenberger:

It means that I pray with my wife every night.

Tony Miltenberger:

It means that I am actively participating in a worship community, right?

Tony Miltenberger:

Grateful means that I call my parents at least once a week.

Tony Miltenberger:

Generous is about my tithe, and my talent and I always have one

Tony Miltenberger:

free coaching client, right?

Tony Miltenberger:

Because that's my scorecard at the end of the year.

Tony Miltenberger:

I want to be able to.

Tony Miltenberger:

Evaluate without manipulating the answers in my own head if I'm really

Tony Miltenberger:

living out the values that I say I want.

Tony Miltenberger:

Right?

Tony Miltenberger:

And so like, you know, one of the examples of my core four,

Tony Miltenberger:

the last one is movement, right?

Tony Miltenberger:

And in the work that I do and in my own life, it's movement.

Tony Miltenberger:

And so every year I want to try one thing that I've never done before.

Tony Miltenberger:

I just wanna try, I just wanna try it, right?

Tony Miltenberger:

And so

Dallas Burnett:

love it.

Tony Miltenberger:

this year we, for the very first time in our

Tony Miltenberger:

life, we're going to South Africa.

Dallas Burnett:

Ooh, nice.

Tony Miltenberger:

there with a, we're going there with a ministry.

Tony Miltenberger:

We're gonna go and we're gonna go on safari while we're there, and we're gonna

Tony Miltenberger:

just, we're gonna do those things, right?

Tony Miltenberger:

So movement, like I, I,

Dallas Burnett:

yeah.

Tony Miltenberger:

now, I don't know any, I don't have any, there's

Tony Miltenberger:

no outcomes associated with that.

Tony Miltenberger:

There's no, but the reason I can say, yeah, I want to do that is because

Tony Miltenberger:

it's associated with my values.

Dallas Burnett:

Yeah.

Tony Miltenberger:

Right, and so that's,

Dallas Burnett:

yeah.

Tony Miltenberger:

that kind of work.

Tony Miltenberger:

I think the values themselves are good and most people I know can

Tony Miltenberger:

come up with values, but assigning activities to the values is what equals

Tony Miltenberger:

application, and then transformation.

Dallas Burnett:

I would say this, that's a huge challenge, not only for you

Dallas Burnett:

personally, but you to extrapolate that to your team because a lot of people

Dallas Burnett:

walk in and I, I see this all the time.

Dallas Burnett:

walk in, you see the values on the wall, and they're like, we

Dallas Burnett:

believe you know this, and here's our mission statement and all.

Dallas Burnett:

And then you walk one office down.

Dallas Burnett:

You don't even make it to the end of the hall or the back closet.

Dallas Burnett:

you don't make it to the, you just walk one office down and

Dallas Burnett:

you walk in the door and you say.

Dallas Burnett:

Hey, you walk by those values every day.

Dallas Burnett:

Can you tell me all five values?

Dallas Burnett:

They're like, oh, well

Dallas Burnett:

here.

Dallas Burnett:

Yeah, now.

Dallas Burnett:

Now let's say they rattle off the values.

Dallas Burnett:

All right, good job.

Dallas Burnett:

You've passed them every day for the last 10 years.

Dallas Burnett:

That is at least that you get score.

Dallas Burnett:

That's a plus for noticing, but then when you say, okay, tell me how this

Dallas Burnett:

company demonstrates this value.

Dallas Burnett:

Exactly.

Dallas Burnett:

It's exactly what you just said.

Dallas Burnett:

It's exactly what is the scorecard under the value.

Dallas Burnett:

It's how do I know that this is not an aspirational value for you or for the

Dallas Burnett:

company or the organization, but it's an integrated value and the integrated value

Dallas Burnett:

is different than aspirational because you have the scorecard, you keep score and

Dallas Burnett:

what a lot of times the companies will do.

Dallas Burnett:

And organizations will do is they'll keep score on the financial scorecard,

Dallas Burnett:

the balance sheet, the income statement, a profit and loss statement

Dallas Burnett:

and stuff, but they, they don't have a really good scorecard on the

Dallas Burnett:

value scorecard and they wonder why.

Dallas Burnett:

culture is in kind of a malaise or there's no energy behind it,

Dallas Burnett:

or there's no really definition.

Dallas Burnett:

Or they may have a higher turnover or they don't really know, they don't

Dallas Burnett:

know how to pro promote someone.

Dallas Burnett:

How do I know if somebody's doing really well or not?

Dallas Burnett:

at the end of the day, you as a business you have to make money.

Dallas Burnett:

But on the flip side there, there's different ways to do that.

Dallas Burnett:

And, and so I, I can't agree with you more, and I think that as a leader.

Dallas Burnett:

Listening to you challenge us to, to create those scorecards personally,

Dallas Burnett:

also extrapolate extrapolates to, your team and organization.

Dallas Burnett:

So I love that.

Tony Miltenberger:

One of the things that I say all the time on the podcast, and

Tony Miltenberger:

it's just become a core belief, is that if you're not dedicated to your disciplines,

Tony Miltenberger:

you'll be destroyed by your distractions.

Dallas Burnett:

Hmm hmm.

Tony Miltenberger:

And so he, so here's the truth, right?

Tony Miltenberger:

As a leader, no one ever wakes up and says, man, today's the

Tony Miltenberger:

day that I wanna ruin my life.

Tony Miltenberger:

I just haven't met anybody that says that, right?

Tony Miltenberger:

Today's the day that I wanna sink my business, right?

Tony Miltenberger:

But here's what we do, is we inadvertently sacrifice the activities that got

Tony Miltenberger:

us to the place in the first place,

Dallas Burnett:

Yeah.

Tony Miltenberger:

and here's the thing.

Tony Miltenberger:

you can, you can take this to every part of your life.

Tony Miltenberger:

You found that husband or wife.

Tony Miltenberger:

What did you do to find her or him?

Tony Miltenberger:

What are you doing to keep her or him?

Tony Miltenberger:

Right?

Tony Miltenberger:

There are disciplines.

Tony Miltenberger:

No one ever wakes up and says, man, I really want to end my marriage today.

Tony Miltenberger:

We stop dating, we stop doing the work that is required.

Tony Miltenberger:

We stop communicating.

Tony Miltenberger:

We stop being vulnerable, right?

Tony Miltenberger:

And this is the same thing that happens in our parenting.

Tony Miltenberger:

All of a sudden, if you think about parenting those younger years, you're

Tony Miltenberger:

attentive, you're engaged, you're involved because you have to be.

Tony Miltenberger:

And then they get to be about 12 or 13 and they're like, oh my gosh,

Tony Miltenberger:

this human is really annoying me.

Tony Miltenberger:

I'm not going to do those things.

Tony Miltenberger:

And then we wonder why they don't come back home with their grandkids.

Dallas Burnett:

Yes.

Dallas Burnett:

Yes.

Tony Miltenberger:

It's the disciplines that got you there.

Tony Miltenberger:

And if you don't know what your disciplines are, then you've actually

Tony Miltenberger:

just let the world set your disciplines,

Tony Miltenberger:

right?

Tony Miltenberger:

Because the world will say, the world will say, you can come in

Tony Miltenberger:

at eight and leave at five, right?

Tony Miltenberger:

Is it Well, is that what you want?

Tony Miltenberger:

Is that the life that you want?

Tony Miltenberger:

I don't know.

Tony Miltenberger:

I And I honestly, I don't care.

Tony Miltenberger:

Like I don't care what your answer is to the question.

Tony Miltenberger:

I just care that you take the time to answer it.

Dallas Burnett:

Exactly.

Dallas Burnett:

Ah, man, I think that's, I think that's so awesome.

Dallas Burnett:

And I think that ultimately what you're trying to get to is really defining, it's

Dallas Burnett:

defining who you are and what you want.

Dallas Burnett:

And I think that's.

Dallas Burnett:

It's just really interesting because I think that most people move

Dallas Burnett:

through life and it kind of is acted on them and they don't act on it.

Dallas Burnett:

You know what I mean?

Dallas Burnett:

And I, and to your point, I would say this, even, you know, when you

Dallas Burnett:

gave a great example about your marriage, and I think that's so true.

Dallas Burnett:

It's that what it is, it is, it is layers when you think about

Dallas Burnett:

it, it's like the amount of.

Dallas Burnett:

effort in early on in the relationship.

Dallas Burnett:

can you say that you're actually doing that?

Dallas Burnett:

If you're in a, in the trenches with your spouse and you're like, oh

Dallas Burnett:

man, we're just grinding each other.

Dallas Burnett:

are you putting that same, in on that, on this side, and it's most,

Dallas Burnett:

most likely the answer is no.

Dallas Burnett:

but I think in an organization, this is where this gets tricky and it gets murky,

Dallas Burnett:

and many times that people overlook it is I, we had a guest on, probably a year ago.

Dallas Burnett:

And he said, we had this team, we

Tony Miltenberger:

I.

Dallas Burnett:

it was like a small team.

Dallas Burnett:

It was like five people and then it went to 20.

Dallas Burnett:

And it's oh man, we're all tight and we're doing all these things together and we

Dallas Burnett:

had this kind of core common values and we kinda all believed the same thing and

Dallas Burnett:

we're running the race together and this is like awesome, tight group of people.

Dallas Burnett:

And then we grew really fast and we had like several hundred people and we

Dallas Burnett:

were doing the same things the same way that we did it when we're 20 people.

Dallas Burnett:

And it wasn't working.

Tony Miltenberger:

Right.

Dallas Burnett:

and so what he was saying was, is that our connections, we

Dallas Burnett:

were connecting when we were 20 people, but it, I can't connect with 200, but

Dallas Burnett:

I wasn't connecting at all, right?

Dallas Burnett:

Because I was still trying to connect as if I was with 20 people.

Dallas Burnett:

And so the system changed.

Dallas Burnett:

or the, this environment changed, but the system didn't change with it.

Dallas Burnett:

So the connection is, like what you're saying,

Tony Miltenberger:

Yep.

Dallas Burnett:

of connection.

Dallas Burnett:

I wanna connect with people and I wanna make sure they connect with

Dallas Burnett:

each other and have clarity on what we believe in our mission vision.

Dallas Burnett:

But when the environment changed and went from 20 to 200, the systems

Dallas Burnett:

didn't change with it to maintain that connection and that clarity

Dallas Burnett:

and that those value structure.

Dallas Burnett:

So I think that's where it gets tricky as a leader is because not only are

Dallas Burnett:

you looking at yourself going, Hey.

Dallas Burnett:

What am I doing and am I putting out that and am I, am I clear on that,

Dallas Burnett:

on my discipline, but the way that I exercise that discipline could change?

Tony Miltenberger:

Right.

Tony Miltenberger:

And so one of the things I tell, uh, clients all the time, and I

Tony Miltenberger:

love little sticky sayings, is that you have to set a date to evaluate,

Tony Miltenberger:

You have to set a date to evaluate is this working or is this not working?

Tony Miltenberger:

And sometimes I hear from business owners, they're like, I'm too busy.

Tony Miltenberger:

And I'm like, if you're too busy to evaluate how you're

Tony Miltenberger:

running your business, then your business is actually running you.

Dallas Burnett:

Mm. Yeah, a hundred percent.

Tony Miltenberger:

So you just gotta set a day to evaluate.

Tony Miltenberger:

I shut the doors for a day.

Tony Miltenberger:

I, there's nothing in the world that if you don't have a team of people that can

Tony Miltenberger:

run the business without your presence, then there's then take a Saturday, take a

Tony Miltenberger:

Sunday, whatever you, whatever it takes.

Tony Miltenberger:

If you don't set a date to evaluate, then you, it's impossible to be

Tony Miltenberger:

intentional in your response.

Tony Miltenberger:

Right.

Tony Miltenberger:

And, and.

Tony Miltenberger:

One of the things that I just really believe on, and I talk a little

Tony Miltenberger:

about in the book is this idea that, we can be emotionally reactive or

Tony Miltenberger:

we can be intentionally responsive.

Dallas Burnett:

Hmm.

Tony Miltenberger:

And as a leader, if we're emotionally reactive, then what

Tony Miltenberger:

we've done is we've allowed the feelings to become the primary driver of the

Tony Miltenberger:

world that we are living in instead of.

Tony Miltenberger:

Being intentional in our response, being value-based,

Tony Miltenberger:

being mission and vision driven.

Tony Miltenberger:

And that's the difference.

Dallas Burnett:

Ah, nah.

Dallas Burnett:

That's really good.

Dallas Burnett:

I love it.

Dallas Burnett:

I love that.

Dallas Burnett:

And it's accountability.

Dallas Burnett:

It's just if you put that date down, when you set a date to evaluate,

Dallas Burnett:

you're just giving yourself that built in accountability that everybody

Dallas Burnett:

needs that is putting the, is putting your gym schedule on your calendar

Tony Miltenberger:

right.

Dallas Burnett:

that you don't overbook.

Dallas Burnett:

and just saying, this is what I'm gonna do.

Dallas Burnett:

I'm carving out time and having that accountability.

Dallas Burnett:

man, this has been great.

Dallas Burnett:

I want to talk, I want to get into your book a little bit 'cause this is,

Dallas Burnett:

you're doing your world tour right now.

Dallas Burnett:

the book launch.

Dallas Burnett:

And I know that there's some valuable information for leaders

Dallas Burnett:

that are living in the last 10%.

Dallas Burnett:

And I like the idea when we first connected about your

Dallas Burnett:

book because as leaders.

Dallas Burnett:

Sometimes we get into this leadership, you know, mindset where, you know, it,

Dallas Burnett:

we're supposed to have all the answers.

Dallas Burnett:

we're supposed to kind of be this perfect, display perfection to people around us.

Dallas Burnett:

and sometimes we start telling ourselves that's what we should

Dallas Burnett:

be and that's who we are.

Dallas Burnett:

And so it's like this, you know, defense mechanisms, all that stuff.

Dallas Burnett:

But I thought your book was a really good way to open up some conversation about.

Dallas Burnett:

Real life and leaders in the real world because, we all have battle scars.

Dallas Burnett:

And so I think moving through that and dealing with those is important.

Dallas Burnett:

So tell us a little bit about, just give us an intro to, to your book and

Dallas Burnett:

kind of what inspired you to write it.

Tony Miltenberger:

Yeah.

Tony Miltenberger:

the book is called Wisdom in the Wound, how Your Greatest Gift is on the other,

Tony Miltenberger:

side of Your Wound, and this idea is.

Tony Miltenberger:

It comes back to the a core belief that the art of conscious leadership.

Tony Miltenberger:

How do you show up in a room?

Tony Miltenberger:

How do you show up as a leader?

Tony Miltenberger:

And one of the things that I began to realize as I did pastoral counseling

Tony Miltenberger:

and executive coaching is that everyone in the world has got something, right?

Tony Miltenberger:

And so we would call that, little t trauma, right?

Tony Miltenberger:

You're wounding, it usually happens between the ages of four and 12.

Tony Miltenberger:

It's not malicious in intent, but it drastically shapes the

Tony Miltenberger:

way you look at the world.

Tony Miltenberger:

It becomes, I would say, like a lens that in which you look at the world and

Tony Miltenberger:

we all have it and it's unavoidable.

Tony Miltenberger:

So if you've got kids, let me just go ahead and affirm, you've

Tony Miltenberger:

already wounded your kids, so just

Dallas Burnett:

Congratulations.

Tony Miltenberger:

this is also probably what happened.

Tony Miltenberger:

You probably tried to give them a different wound than what your

Tony Miltenberger:

parents gave you, and so as a result, they look different.

Tony Miltenberger:

Praise.

Tony Miltenberger:

God, right?

Tony Miltenberger:

Like, okay, so everybody's wounded.

Tony Miltenberger:

If theologically, we would call it the epistemic consequence of sin, right?

Tony Miltenberger:

The world is broken.

Tony Miltenberger:

Everyone's willing to admit the world is broken.

Tony Miltenberger:

We don't often talk about the consequences of that brokenness.

Tony Miltenberger:

Your wound

Tony Miltenberger:

is that consequence.

Tony Miltenberger:

So what does that mean?

Tony Miltenberger:

It means that oftentimes people bump up against our wounds.

Tony Miltenberger:

It causes us to react emotionally.

Tony Miltenberger:

So let me give you an example.

Tony Miltenberger:

at four years old, my parents had unplanned twins.

Tony Miltenberger:

Crazy.

Tony Miltenberger:

they went from man to man defense to zone defense.

Tony Miltenberger:

And I went from being the middle child or the youngest child to the middle,

Dallas Burnett:

Ah.

Tony Miltenberger:

so nobody's fault.

Tony Miltenberger:

Nobody did it to me.

Tony Miltenberger:

I love my brother and sisters.

Tony Miltenberger:

They're incredible humans.

Tony Miltenberger:

Would not trade them for the world.

Tony Miltenberger:

And also from four years old on my wound is I felt like I didn't matter.

Tony Miltenberger:

Now, I've talked to my parents about this.

Tony Miltenberger:

I've talked to my, nobody did this to me on purpose, but it became

Tony Miltenberger:

the lens at which I saw the world.

Tony Miltenberger:

And so.

Dallas Burnett:

Hmm.

Tony Miltenberger:

At four years old, I go to the middle child syndrome and

Tony Miltenberger:

I'm in full effect, and my parents are managing this new life with four kids.

Tony Miltenberger:

They end up getting divorced, they end up getting remarried, and somewhere

Tony Miltenberger:

along the way, the narrative in my head was, I don't really matter now.

Tony Miltenberger:

Play that out.

Tony Miltenberger:

I eventually go to high school, join the army, do all this kind of

Tony Miltenberger:

work, and I'm constantly looking for roles where I can show up in

Tony Miltenberger:

people's lives so that I matter.

Tony Miltenberger:

And so, so here's the deal, right?

Tony Miltenberger:

On the other side of that wound.

Tony Miltenberger:

Is my greatest gift because we serve a redemptive God and because psychologically

Tony Miltenberger:

we always want to take account for the pain and trauma that we've experienced.

Tony Miltenberger:

And so what am I really good at?

Tony Miltenberger:

I'm really good at seeing people.

Dallas Burnett:

Yeah.

Dallas Burnett:

Right,

Tony Miltenberger:

And so your gift is naturally on the other side of your wound.

Tony Miltenberger:

and here's the deal.

Tony Miltenberger:

There's this tool that I talk about in the book called The Emotional Intensity Scale.

Tony Miltenberger:

On a scale from one to 10, your emotional intensity, you, we

Tony Miltenberger:

typically, most people typically run in that two to four range, right?

Tony Miltenberger:

Emotional intensity, two to four.

Tony Miltenberger:

On a normal day, your two to four may look different than my two to four, but

Tony Miltenberger:

we all have a normal kind of homeostasis.

Tony Miltenberger:

When somebody bumps up against our wound, we have an intensity spike.

Tony Miltenberger:

And so here's the tool.

Tony Miltenberger:

If on a scale from one to 10, your emotional intensity spikes above

Tony Miltenberger:

a six, it's always more about you than it is the other person,

Dallas Burnett:

Ah, interesting.

Tony Miltenberger:

right?

Tony Miltenberger:

So we're, if we're a hundred percent responsible for how we think, feel,

Tony Miltenberger:

and act, meaning that you have, you have cognitive control over your

Tony Miltenberger:

feelings, thoughts, and actions, then that means it's impossible.

Tony Miltenberger:

For someone to actually make us mad, but instead we have to choose to be mad.

Tony Miltenberger:

And in most cases, we have to own the fact that we're doing it on purpose.

Dallas Burnett:

Yeah.

Tony Miltenberger:

And that's just a lot, right?

Tony Miltenberger:

It's a lot.

Tony Miltenberger:

But think about it like this.

Tony Miltenberger:

If I'm driving down I 75, I live in Ohio, it's the worst highway in the

Tony Miltenberger:

world, it, and somebody cuts me off.

Tony Miltenberger:

They cut me off.

Tony Miltenberger:

They didn't see me.

Tony Miltenberger:

And then I immediately lay on my horn and I tell them that they're number one.

Tony Miltenberger:

And I use all the words that I learned in the Army to convey

Tony Miltenberger:

my displeasure for this moment.

Tony Miltenberger:

We've all been there right now.

Tony Miltenberger:

Here's the question I already shared with you, my values.

Tony Miltenberger:

Does any of that activity actually aligned with my values?

Tony Miltenberger:

No.

Dallas Burnett:

I would say no.

Tony Miltenberger:

No, there's nothing faithful, grateful,

Tony Miltenberger:

generous, or movement about that.

Tony Miltenberger:

Instead, I'm having an emotional reaction because my emotional

Tony Miltenberger:

intensity has been spiked.

Tony Miltenberger:

Now, what is this do I really think in my heart of hearts, did that guy in

Tony Miltenberger:

front of me did that to me on purpose?

Tony Miltenberger:

Nope.

Tony Miltenberger:

No.

Tony Miltenberger:

He doesn't even know who I am.

Tony Miltenberger:

But what happened in that moment is he bumped up against my wound,

Tony Miltenberger:

which is I want to be seen.

Tony Miltenberger:

what, when he doesn't care about my safety, I don't feel very seen, do I?

Dallas Burnett:

Right, right.

Tony Miltenberger:

And so now the reality is, is as a, conscious

Tony Miltenberger:

leader, I can say This situation isn't really about this car in front of me.

Tony Miltenberger:

It's about my wound that just lives inside of me.

Tony Miltenberger:

And it's real.

Dallas Burnett:

Yeah, it's almost like it just gets aggravated in that,

Dallas Burnett:

it's it just, somebody pricks it,

Tony Miltenberger:

Yeah,

Dallas Burnett:

like,

Tony Miltenberger:

a hundred percent.

Dallas Burnett:

go.

Dallas Burnett:

It's just a little bit more sensitive than the rest of the rest of you,

Tony Miltenberger:

And we all have it right now.

Tony Miltenberger:

Now here's what's crazy, is that sensitivity that can go for

Tony Miltenberger:

good activities as much as it can go for negative activities.

Tony Miltenberger:

So here's another example.

Tony Miltenberger:

I've got two sons that both play football.

Tony Miltenberger:

They're both linebackers.

Tony Miltenberger:

Let's say one of 'em intercepts the ball, takes it back to the house.

Tony Miltenberger:

Full blown.

Tony Miltenberger:

Pick six.

Tony Miltenberger:

Love it, right?

Dallas Burnett:

Yeah.

Tony Miltenberger:

it.

Tony Miltenberger:

And then I go full blown Midwestern dad on the sideline.

Tony Miltenberger:

Like I'm chest bumping pit ball.

Tony Miltenberger:

I'm high five, and let's go.

Tony Miltenberger:

Right?

Tony Miltenberger:

Like, I'm going nuts.

Dallas Burnett:

Yeah, yeah.

Tony Miltenberger:

in that moment.

Tony Miltenberger:

Is that more about me or is it about them?

Tony Miltenberger:

It's about me.

Dallas Burnett:

Yeah.

Dallas Burnett:

Being seen.

Tony Miltenberger:

Be in seen, 'cause I did that on that field.

Tony Miltenberger:

Those are my kids,

Dallas Burnett:

my

Tony Miltenberger:

my

Tony Miltenberger:

boy, right?

Dallas Burnett:

you go.

Tony Miltenberger:

and so the deal is that as leaders, we have to know that when

Tony Miltenberger:

our emotions are above a six, the only thing that we can do that will be healthy

Tony Miltenberger:

is feel our feelings so that we can get below a six to make a good decision.

Tony Miltenberger:

So feelings at their core, their decision points, they're not decision makers.

Tony Miltenberger:

And so the greatest leaders in the world have this kind of thing figured out.

Tony Miltenberger:

They've realized that life is not the absence of your wound, like

Tony Miltenberger:

you're not gonna make it go away, Dallas, it's gonna be there forever.

Tony Miltenberger:

But instead they have an intimacy with their wound so that when

Tony Miltenberger:

somebody bumps up against it.

Tony Miltenberger:

It doesn't scare them.

Dallas Burnett:

I like how you've painted that picture because

Dallas Burnett:

it's really defining what a, a, like a part of self-awareness is.

Dallas Burnett:

Like you're pulling out, I love how you're tying the wound

Dallas Burnett:

to a leader's self-awareness.

Dallas Burnett:

Because that's, that is an incredible, you know, EQ and if you can recognize it in

Dallas Burnett:

others and yourself and self-awareness and what you're describing is just a profound

Dallas Burnett:

way of understanding yourself better so that you have the ability to respond,

Dallas Burnett:

like what you were saying earlier, you have the ability to intentionally

Dallas Burnett:

respond versus emotionally react.

Dallas Burnett:

And if your emotions.

Dallas Burnett:

Are not decision points, but drivers.

Dallas Burnett:

Right.

Tony Miltenberger:

Right.

Dallas Burnett:

your decision like, gonna, I'm going.

Dallas Burnett:

'cause you're always asking your question.

Dallas Burnett:

I guess if you're a competent leader, you're asking, when you start feeling

Dallas Burnett:

the, when you get the feels good, bad, or ugly, if it's coming up, you feel your

Dallas Burnett:

neck getting red and you're like, you feel the beast coming out, then the question

Dallas Burnett:

is, are you intentionally responding in a way that is appropriate to the situation

Dallas Burnett:

or is your emotions driving you to do something that you typically wouldn't do?

Dallas Burnett:

Like you were saying, the example in the car when you're driving.

Dallas Burnett:

I just think that's really important for leaders because it's, this is

Dallas Burnett:

not a. An employee or a team member problem versus a leader problem.

Dallas Burnett:

This is a human

Tony Miltenberger:

Right.

Dallas Burnett:

we all deal with this, so it doesn't matter, even if you're an

Dallas Burnett:

introvert or an extrovert, if you got a lot of energy or if you got a little

Dallas Burnett:

energy, it's like, it doesn't matter.

Dallas Burnett:

Everybody's been wounded and we all have these things, and I just think

Dallas Burnett:

about it in my career, I saw an employee when I was in a part of a startup.

Dallas Burnett:

I just, when you're saying these things, I'm just like, I'm playing this over my

Dallas Burnett:

you know, because I've had these conversations with my wife and one of the

Dallas Burnett:

things I did early on in my leadership career, I was running this venture funded

Dallas Burnett:

startup and I was at the table with the founder and we're sitting across

Dallas Burnett:

the board table and we've got all the finance answers, people around us, and

Dallas Burnett:

they made this, he made this comment about, we need to let this guy go.

Dallas Burnett:

We just had hired this guy and I felt like the, he was getting.

Dallas Burnett:

It wasn't just that he made that comment, it was that he was dismissive of the

Dallas Burnett:

person and their value as an individual.

Dallas Burnett:

Like he was just like he, he really

Tony Miltenberger:

Hmm.

Dallas Burnett:

not, and at that point I just felt like the person was so treated

Dallas Burnett:

so unfairly like you, it was just like.

Dallas Burnett:

And I just was like, I'm gonna defend the person who can't defend themselves.

Dallas Burnett:

And I wa I just went into we are not, and I mean it, and I went

Dallas Burnett:

from zero to 60 and way too fast.

Dallas Burnett:

And had I had more awareness at that point in time.

Dallas Burnett:

I would've handled that differently.

Dallas Burnett:

I would've said probably very similar things, but the response would've

Dallas Burnett:

been less driven by that emotion, and I could have probably articulated it

Dallas Burnett:

better and not like the finances were looking at whoa, you know, these guys,

Dallas Burnett:

these guys, I don't know, And so.

Dallas Burnett:

Uh, this, then you're in damage control mode.

Dallas Burnett:

So I'm just looking at that and that's a real live example

Dallas Burnett:

of just my personal story.

Dallas Burnett:

Like I would, going back, I may have said the same thing.

Dallas Burnett:

I believe the same thing he was not being treated fairly.

Dallas Burnett:

He was, he should not have been terminated, all that.

Dallas Burnett:

But the way I handled that was way more emotionally driven

Dallas Burnett:

than intentionally driven.

Dallas Burnett:

You know what I

Tony Miltenberger:

Yeah, and, and part of the result of that is that people

Tony Miltenberger:

can't hear your message when you're not clear enough with yourself to deliver it.

Dallas Burnett:

Exactly right.

Tony Miltenberger:

And so this matters, this matters in your marriage.

Tony Miltenberger:

This matters in your parenting, this matters in your workplace.

Tony Miltenberger:

This matters in all the places where you should, anywhere that

Tony Miltenberger:

there are people this matters.

Tony Miltenberger:

'cause all of life is just a bunch of broken people bumping

Tony Miltenberger:

up against each other's wounds.

Tony Miltenberger:

And so, you know, one of the things that I kind of assert in the book is

Tony Miltenberger:

that grace is curiosity and empathy.

Dallas Burnett:

Hmm.

Tony Miltenberger:

you can have curiosity and empathy, then you can

Tony Miltenberger:

be graceful in the approach that you want to take in working with others.

Tony Miltenberger:

Right?

Tony Miltenberger:

I was like, man, I wonder what's going on in Dallas's day that

Tony Miltenberger:

caused him to react like that.

Tony Miltenberger:

Or, I can't even imagine the pressure that Dallas has, but oftentimes because

Tony Miltenberger:

my emotional response is so high, I can't have curiosity or empathy.

Tony Miltenberger:

Instead, I just have this reactiveness, it's like, rah,

Tony Miltenberger:

the whole world's out to get me.

Tony Miltenberger:

like it's man, that's, and the problem is that emotional reaction

Tony Miltenberger:

will oftentimes just paint an in an inaccurate picture of reality.

Tony Miltenberger:

So it's, it may feel that way that the whole world's out to get you, but the

Tony Miltenberger:

truth is no one's even thinking about you.

Tony Miltenberger:

it's just it's like, how, and so as a leader, I wanna make an informed decision.

Tony Miltenberger:

John Tyson would say, spirit led data informed.

Tony Miltenberger:

I wanna make an informed decision.

Tony Miltenberger:

That is full of data points that will move the organization forward to

Tony Miltenberger:

what I feel like we're called to do.

Tony Miltenberger:

And in order to do that, I have to take the wounded part of me and I have to

Tony Miltenberger:

be so familiar with it that it doesn't scare me if I have to lead us down a path

Tony Miltenberger:

where something might bump up against it.

Dallas Burnett:

You know, you dropped the one line.

Dallas Burnett:

You were right man, you've got some great one-liners.

Dallas Burnett:

The grace is curiosity and empathy.

Dallas Burnett:

is a, when you think, I've never heard it put like that.

Dallas Burnett:

I've never heard Grace described like that.

Dallas Burnett:

And what's fascinating is when you think about curiosity, I'm curious

Dallas Burnett:

about something, I'm not judging it.

Tony Miltenberger:

Right.

Dallas Burnett:

I'm also really not afraid of it.

Dallas Burnett:

I'm really like, interested, okay, let me find out more about this.

Dallas Burnett:

I want to know more.

Dallas Burnett:

I'm very cur, I'm intrigued.

Dallas Burnett:

I'm actually.

Dallas Burnett:

Wow.

Dallas Burnett:

And when you think about when you approach someone as a leader, whether it's a

Dallas Burnett:

team member, whether it's a coworker or whether it's your, whether it's your boss

Dallas Burnett:

when they disagree with you or when they do something that doesn't make sense.

Dallas Burnett:

Then if you're responding emotionally and you allow that to be, it really takes,

Dallas Burnett:

you're either judging them or you're afraid, or some other, many other things.

Dallas Burnett:

But those are two big things that you're gonna have to deal with.

Dallas Burnett:

But if you can move past that, and especially like we're talking about in

Dallas Burnett:

the wound and evaluate that and say, oh, if I'm emotional response is a little

Dallas Burnett:

too high, if I step back from a second, it does, you'll win so many more times.

Dallas Burnett:

If you can just look at that and say, oh.

Dallas Burnett:

I'm fascinated to why you think like that.

Dallas Burnett:

why do you think like that?

Dallas Burnett:

Why did you make that decision?

Dallas Burnett:

Why are we doing that?

Dallas Burnett:

But if you can do that in a non-judgmental way, it's not

Dallas Burnett:

gonna come across as judgmental.

Tony Miltenberger:

Yeah,

Dallas Burnett:

the problem is you might ask the same question,

Dallas Burnett:

why do you think like that?

Dallas Burnett:

Why in the world would you think like that versus.

Dallas Burnett:

Oh man, I'm so interested.

Dallas Burnett:

Tell me more.

Dallas Burnett:

Tell me more

Tony Miltenberger:

tell me more about that.

Tony Miltenberger:

yes.

Dallas Burnett:

this is a total different, but that takes, that is like a walking,

Dallas Burnett:

it is, it's a, that, that takes grace, to extend that curiosity to someone.

Dallas Burnett:

So that's a, I love that.

Dallas Burnett:

I love that idea.

Dallas Burnett:

That's really good.

Dallas Burnett:

let's talk about, what you feel like has been, your biggest message in this, if

Dallas Burnett:

you were to give the biggest message from this to a leader, let's say the leader

Dallas Burnett:

is leading an organization or a team.

Dallas Burnett:

If you were to say, I'm gonna boil this thing down.

Dallas Burnett:

If you were gonna know this book down to one

Tony Miltenberger:

Mm-hmm.

Dallas Burnett:

what would you do to say, to communicate to that leader?

Tony Miltenberger:

I would say this is the greatest leaders

Tony Miltenberger:

in the world know who they are.

Tony Miltenberger:

On the positive and the wounded sides, and they don't have

Tony Miltenberger:

judgment around either side.

Tony Miltenberger:

They just acknowledge that both sides exist.

Tony Miltenberger:

And so there's this tendency, there's this tendency with a lot of us, I

Tony Miltenberger:

know, with me at least, to judge my feelings as if I shouldn't have them.

Tony Miltenberger:

Man, Tony, you shouldn't tell people that you get mad at cars

Tony Miltenberger:

on the 75 or you shouldn't.

Tony Miltenberger:

Like I, I know that one of the things I struggle with is ego.

Tony Miltenberger:

Like I've never not struggled with it.

Tony Miltenberger:

it's just part of how I'm wired, right?

Tony Miltenberger:

Like I, I want to be seen.

Tony Miltenberger:

and so it's a constant battle and I'm, Dallas, you've done this multiple times.

Tony Miltenberger:

This whole process of trying to talk to people about your book is basically

Dallas Burnett:

yeah.

Tony Miltenberger:

It's basically Hey, will you be my friend so

Tony Miltenberger:

that I can talk about my book?

Tony Miltenberger:

it's so dumb and good and but so here's the thing, right?

Tony Miltenberger:

All of that is true.

Tony Miltenberger:

but my judgment around those feelings doesn't actually serve what I

Tony Miltenberger:

feel like I'm being called to do.

Tony Miltenberger:

So like I do feel like, when people say no, like they don't know what they're

Tony Miltenberger:

doing or they hurt my feelings, and I do want this to be wildly successful,

Tony Miltenberger:

and I'm not a hundred percent sure what that means, and I'm talking to a lot

Tony Miltenberger:

of people in my world about it, but I.

Tony Miltenberger:

For me to put judgment around any of those feelings doesn't

Tony Miltenberger:

actually serve the greater good.

Tony Miltenberger:

Instead, I just want to just sit in it and just acknowledge that I am wounded,

Tony Miltenberger:

people do bump up, up against my wounds.

Tony Miltenberger:

I do have big feelings, and all of that makes me exactly who I am,

Tony Miltenberger:

and

Dallas Burnett:

that.

Tony Miltenberger:

thankful for that.

Dallas Burnett:

I love that.

Dallas Burnett:

love that.

Dallas Burnett:

And I think that I wanna take it one step further in the sense that

Dallas Burnett:

I would love for you to talk about, so you just summarized those, that

Dallas Burnett:

core principle and idea that you're communicating with the book to leaders.

Dallas Burnett:

I would love to take it one step further because there's a lot of leaders who are.

Dallas Burnett:

Wanting to do well and are coaching some of their team members.

Dallas Burnett:

They're developing them, and some of that's direct and some of it's indirect.

Dallas Burnett:

But if I'm a leader and I'm sitting down with a team member.

Dallas Burnett:

what recommendations would you have?

Dallas Burnett:

'cause you're engaging with executives in

Tony Miltenberger:

Yeah.

Dallas Burnett:

been in ministry for a long time, you've been in the Army,

Dallas Burnett:

and you've engaged, whether that's in direct coaching, indirect or counseling.

Dallas Burnett:

you've been a part of a lot of people's lives and seen them develop and change.

Dallas Burnett:

and so what advice would you give to a leader if they wanted to help walk?

Dallas Burnett:

With someone and help them develop greater level of awareness about their wounding,

Dallas Burnett:

how would you recommend they do that?

Tony Miltenberger:

This is probably not surprising to anyone who's done

Tony Miltenberger:

any reading about leadership stuff, but the truth is you have to, walk

Tony Miltenberger:

alongside them in the journey.

Tony Miltenberger:

And so that means you have to go first.

Tony Miltenberger:

Right there, there are a lot of situations in leadership where you should go last

Tony Miltenberger:

and, I love that book Leaders Eat Last.

Tony Miltenberger:

but it's also true that when it comes to vulnerability based trust, which is

Tony Miltenberger:

essentially what we're talking about here, that leaders have to start first.

Tony Miltenberger:

And so imagine what would happen if you walked into a room of direct reports

Tony Miltenberger:

and said, Hey guys, I have been on a journey of realizing some things about me.

Tony Miltenberger:

I wanted to come in and apologize for some emotional reactions I

Tony Miltenberger:

had recently about this event.

Tony Miltenberger:

And what I've realized happened is, early on in my life, I was wounded.

Tony Miltenberger:

Like all we all were and make a joke and then, and then tell them like, guys, one

Tony Miltenberger:

of the things that I really struggle with is being seen, and sometimes it shows up

Tony Miltenberger:

in the workplace like this and like this.

Tony Miltenberger:

and then if you're really brave, ask him this question.

Tony Miltenberger:

How was it like to be on the other side of me in that moment?

Dallas Burnett:

Oh, that's good.

Dallas Burnett:

That's good.

Tony Miltenberger:

and then, and then everyone in the

Tony Miltenberger:

room will be like, our boss.

Tony Miltenberger:

if it's an uncommon behavior, our boss is off the wagon, right?

Tony Miltenberger:

Like it.

Tony Miltenberger:

but if it's common behavior, if it's a normal part of your culture

Tony Miltenberger:

already, then you can invite them.

Tony Miltenberger:

Hey guys, I wanna invite you into this journey with me.

Tony Miltenberger:

I want us to be a team that can share the hard parts.

Tony Miltenberger:

I would love for you to take a look at what your wounding might be and.

Tony Miltenberger:

Let's take a look at what your gifting is and let's take a look at what

Tony Miltenberger:

emotionally spikes you and let's just have some dialogue around it, not to fix

Tony Miltenberger:

it 'cause we're not gonna fix it, but so that we can all hold it together and

Tony Miltenberger:

understand that like we see each other.

Tony Miltenberger:

I.

Dallas Burnett:

Mm-hmm.

Dallas Burnett:

Yeah, that's really good.

Dallas Burnett:

I think that.

Dallas Burnett:

It's so uncommon and so uncomfortable for leaders because

Dallas Burnett:

I think some leaders, again.

Dallas Burnett:

Without that, if they're insecure anything, then exposing that wound

Dallas Burnett:

just seems like I'm sta it's the, I'm standing in front of the people.

Dallas Burnett:

The emperor has no

Tony Miltenberger:

Sure.

Dallas Burnett:

oh my gosh.

Dallas Burnett:

you feel that.

Dallas Burnett:

and you also, I think as a leader can feel, a bit of fear.

Dallas Burnett:

if I put this out there, is anybody gonna turn around and use this?

Dallas Burnett:

against me.

Dallas Burnett:

So it takes a lot, I love the word you said, bravery.

Dallas Burnett:

I think it takes a lot of bravery and courage to have that

Dallas Burnett:

vulnerability to open that up.

Dallas Burnett:

But again, to, to your point, if you can do that and open it up with your team,

Dallas Burnett:

you're giving them permission to say that and they can't really say anything to.

Dallas Burnett:

It takes away their ability to say anything to you when you ask them,

Dallas Burnett:

Hey, so for you, you know, then you've already, they can't say, well, I

Dallas Burnett:

mean, I'm not telling you that well.

Dallas Burnett:

I mean, I, I did, I told you I'm not asking to do anything

Dallas Burnett:

that I haven't done first.

Dallas Burnett:

I'm not asking you to go anywhere where I haven't gone.

Dallas Burnett:

And so I think that's really good advice and

Tony Miltenberger:

and if you really wanna back this up a little bit too,

Tony Miltenberger:

like if your culture doesn't promote this, months before you actually do

Tony Miltenberger:

the exercise, people are gonna have a hard time making that transition.

Tony Miltenberger:

If they don't feel safe in the culture, then they're not gonna

Tony Miltenberger:

feel safe to share emotionally.

Tony Miltenberger:

So if your culture, is integrity and grit.

Tony Miltenberger:

Vulnerability.

Tony Miltenberger:

You know what, depending on what your culture is, you better figure out a way

Tony Miltenberger:

to integrate that into the environment long before you ever ask them to share

Tony Miltenberger:

the deepest parts of who they are.

Dallas Burnett:

Exactly.

Dallas Burnett:

Yeah,

Tony Miltenberger:

Because if you don't create a safe environment,

Tony Miltenberger:

nobody's gonna share anything.

Tony Miltenberger:

They're all gonna give you lip service.

Tony Miltenberger:

Now, here's the other thing.

Tony Miltenberger:

If you do create like this idea of the culture and you begin to

Tony Miltenberger:

list out the values, then what will happen is the people that

Tony Miltenberger:

don't fit will self-select out.

Dallas Burnett:

Yes.

Dallas Burnett:

Absolutely.

Tony Miltenberger:

and then they've just done a lot of your hard work for you.

Dallas Burnett:

Exactly.

Dallas Burnett:

They're gonna get uncomfortable.

Tony Miltenberger:

it's a gift.

Tony Miltenberger:

I, it's a gift.

Tony Miltenberger:

I, there are companies that I work with all the time that it's like,

Tony Miltenberger:

hey, I'll come in and they'll be, I'll be like, Hey, you want me

Tony Miltenberger:

to take you guys down this path?

Tony Miltenberger:

And they'll like, yes.

Tony Miltenberger:

And we'll start working down the path.

Tony Miltenberger:

And the next thing somebody's gone.

Tony Miltenberger:

I. And they just don't want to do it.

Tony Miltenberger:

They just don't wanna do the work.

Tony Miltenberger:

And that's fine.

Tony Miltenberger:

I'm not making anybody do the work.

Tony Miltenberger:

But you just need to know, if we're building a culture that's based around

Tony Miltenberger:

vulnerability based trust, and somebody doesn't wanna be vulnerable, they're

Tony Miltenberger:

either gonna be leave, they're either gonna leave or they're gonna be a

Tony Miltenberger:

cancer, and either way they gotta go.

Dallas Burnett:

That's so true and I'll tell say this, there was a company we

Dallas Burnett:

worked with, we have worked with for years and they, we do their leadership summits.

Dallas Burnett:

And the interesting thing was one year they invited who I actually knew

Dallas Burnett:

'cause I had met him in one of their offices and, Was totally a toxic guy.

Dallas Burnett:

Like, I mean, I would've recommended they, that company fire him years earlier.

Dallas Burnett:

Like I, I just, he was a drag as big as the word drag could be.

Dallas Burnett:

He was drag and and he was just so not in alignment with the culture.

Dallas Burnett:

Well then they invite him to the leadership summit.

Dallas Burnett:

I'm like, guys, are you sure you wanna do this?

Dallas Burnett:

Because this guy has not bought in.

Dallas Burnett:

And you're bringing him into the kind of the inner circle of the

Dallas Burnett:

top 60 leaders in your company.

Dallas Burnett:

Are you sure you wanna Yeah.

Dallas Burnett:

No, he's gonna, he's gonna really, that's gonna help him out, da da da.

Dallas Burnett:

Well, um, he is done and the day after the leadership summit,

Dallas Burnett:

he turned in his resignation.

Tony Miltenberger:

Yeah.

Tony Miltenberger:

Yep.

Dallas Burnett:

said, look, if this is what you guys are about,

Dallas Burnett:

like I've been hearing it for a long time, but like he didn't, I

Dallas Burnett:

don't think he really believed it.

Dallas Burnett:

And then he got in the room with everybody and he saw how bought in and in alignment

Dallas Burnett:

everybody was and what they believed and how they were gonna move on that the next

Dallas Burnett:

and was like.

Dallas Burnett:

I don't want it.

Tony Miltenberger:

Wow.

Dallas Burnett:

was like, if we could do that, there's about three

Dallas Burnett:

or four other people you need to bring them next year because we'll

Dallas Burnett:

get them off the boat, man, let's go.

Dallas Burnett:

But to your point, it's like when you create a culture that's really strong and

Dallas Burnett:

very much in alignment, then anybody that doesn't fit that mold, or they're just

Dallas Burnett:

gonna, it's self eject because they can't

Tony Miltenberger:

Yeah.

Dallas Burnett:

it

Tony Miltenberger:

One, one of the stickies that I, I use

Tony Miltenberger:

all the time is that common language creates common movement.

Dallas Burnett:

Yeah.

Tony Miltenberger:

So we've gotta create a common language

Tony Miltenberger:

around the EQ parts of the work.

Tony Miltenberger:

No matter if you're selling widgets or you are a coach working with

Tony Miltenberger:

Fortune 500 companies, right?

Tony Miltenberger:

create a common language.

Tony Miltenberger:

that's one of the things that, you know, EOS or scaling up, they all

Tony Miltenberger:

bring a language with them that then everybody begins to u begins to use.

Tony Miltenberger:

That changes kind of the culture of the organization.

Tony Miltenberger:

and you've gotta decide, are there extra parts to this that you wanna make sure

Tony Miltenberger:

that you incorporate in order to make sure that you're thriving as a company?

Dallas Burnett:

I love it.

Dallas Burnett:

I love it.

Dallas Burnett:

All right.

Dallas Burnett:

we need to, we need to know, I want to, we, this has been the

Dallas Burnett:

best conversation by the way.

Dallas Burnett:

I just, this is, man, I

Tony Miltenberger:

Dude, you're,

Dallas Burnett:

I love it.

Tony Miltenberger:

you

Dallas Burnett:

I love it.

Tony Miltenberger:

good at

Dallas Burnett:

the book,

Tony Miltenberger:

good.

Dallas Burnett:

Nah, this has been great.

Dallas Burnett:

you're even better, dude.

Dallas Burnett:

You're like 400 episodes in.

Dallas Burnett:

Are you kidding me?

Tony Miltenberger:

no better or worse.

Tony Miltenberger:

I just got a lot more reps. That's it.

Tony Miltenberger:

I've just got a lot more reps.

Dallas Burnett:

I think it's awesome and I enjoy being on your show too, and I,

Dallas Burnett:

so I want to tell people how they can find more information out about Tony

Dallas Burnett:

and his book, and his show and all that.

Dallas Burnett:

How do people connect with you?

Tony Miltenberger:

I often joke that I'm embarrassingly easy to find and,

Tony Miltenberger:

you could go to Wisdom in the wound book.com and there's pre-orders there.

Tony Miltenberger:

There's, we're giving away the introduction and the forward right

Tony Miltenberger:

now, if you sign up for email list, there's also information about the

Tony Miltenberger:

Follow Lead podcast and the follow lead.

Tony Miltenberger:

Coaching.

Tony Miltenberger:

And so I'm also really been humbled and honored over the last couple of months

Tony Miltenberger:

to do some corporate speaking events.

Tony Miltenberger:

So if your organization is looking for someone who can come in and deliver, I,

Tony Miltenberger:

I give a keynote called Burn the Ships.

Tony Miltenberger:

And it's all about looking in the mirror and not going back.

Tony Miltenberger:

And I love the opportunity to give it so wisdom in the wound book.com.

Tony Miltenberger:

I'm on Instagram at tw melt, T-W-M-I-L-T.

Dallas Burnett:

All right.

Dallas Burnett:

All right, we'll put those in the show notes.

Dallas Burnett:

So everybody, if you're driving, don't worry.

Dallas Burnett:

You can check it out, when you get where you're going.

Dallas Burnett:

And one last question we always ask our guest is, who would you like

Dallas Burnett:

to hear as a guest on the last 10%?

Tony Miltenberger:

Listen, I have been reading, main Street

Tony Miltenberger:

Millionaire by Cody Sanchez,

Dallas Burnett:

nice.

Tony Miltenberger:

fiercely and her contrarian community that she's building.

Tony Miltenberger:

some of that stuff is just so powerful.

Tony Miltenberger:

I so listen, I think Cody's the real deal, so you should try to get her 'cause she's

Tony Miltenberger:

not responding to any of my messages.

Dallas Burnett:

She is definitely a country and she's definitely a force.

Dallas Burnett:

And man, I see your stuff all over LinkedIn and so yeah, that is awesome.

Dallas Burnett:

we'll definitely have to reach out to Cody and if we do get in touch drive, I'll

Dallas Burnett:

say, listen, why are you talking to me?

Dallas Burnett:

You need to be talking to Tony.

Dallas Burnett:

that's what we're gonna tell

Tony Miltenberger:

We could, Hey, look, we could record it

Tony Miltenberger:

with her together if you want.

Tony Miltenberger:

you get her, you'll get her.

Tony Miltenberger:

We'll do a double show or release it on both feeds.

Dallas Burnett:

Okay.

Tony Miltenberger:

we can go back and forth and ask questions.

Tony Miltenberger:

it would be a fun or even better.

Tony Miltenberger:

Even better if you get Cody to come.

Tony Miltenberger:

We should just do a live event and bring both of our communities together.

Dallas Burnett:

I love it.

Dallas Burnett:

ooh.

Dallas Burnett:

A live event.

Dallas Burnett:

You know what?

Dallas Burnett:

might be onto something

Tony Miltenberger:

Think, move, thrive Conference.

Dallas Burnett:

Yeah.

Tony Miltenberger:

By follow the lead, let's go.

Dallas Burnett:

you heard it.

Dallas Burnett:

You heard it here first on the last 10%.

Dallas Burnett:

There's some ideation going on.

Dallas Burnett:

It could be something dangerous.

Dallas Burnett:

man, Tony, thank you so much for being on the show today.

Dallas Burnett:

I just appreciate you and your wisdom.

Dallas Burnett:

I think the leaders have had.

Dallas Burnett:

a lot of lessons to that.

Dallas Burnett:

They can, there's so many takeaways.

Dallas Burnett:

I can't even, I got my notes here.

Dallas Burnett:

I've been scribbling down that you've been talking.

Dallas Burnett:

It's just so good.

Dallas Burnett:

So good.

Dallas Burnett:

So thank you for being on the show, sharing all your

Dallas Burnett:

wisdom with our listeners.

Dallas Burnett:

Good luck on the book launch and book tour, and we just wish you the best and

Dallas Burnett:

we'll have to have you back on when we get Cody on for, for a live session.

Tony Miltenberger:

I love it.

Tony Miltenberger:

Thanks brother.

Tony Miltenberger:

I appreciate you and your community so much.

Tony Miltenberger:

I can't wait to see what the future holds.

Dallas Burnett:

Sounds good.

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The Last 10%
Inspiring People, Coaching Teams, and Improving Cultures
Join The Last 10% for incredible conversations that help uncover the secrets of what it takes to finish well and finish strong. Our guests share their journeys, hardships, and valuable advice. We release new episodes every other Tuesday. If you are a leader, a coach, a business owner, or someone looking to level up, you are in the right place!

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Dallas Burnett