Episode 50

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Published on:

16th Apr 2024

Marlene Chism | Mastering Difficult Conversations - Strategies for Clear, Courageous Leadership Communication

In the latest episode of The Last 10%, co-host Dallas Burnett engages with leadership expert Marlene Chism in discussing the nuances of handling difficult conversations in the workplace. Together, they explore the role of intention-setting and outcomes-oriented communication in transforming leadership interactions. Marlene, who brings a wealth of knowledge from her books and her journey from an everyday employee to a well-known speaker, sheds light on the power of personal responsibility and the game-changing potential of clarity for leaders at every level.

Dallas and Marlene share invaluable insights on building a no-drama organizational culture and strategies to deal with conflict, emphasizing the overlooked inner game—even fortitude, self-awareness, and character—essential for personal growth and professional excellence. This episode serves as a guide for leaders to navigate workplace dynamics with empathy, offering practical advice on making tough conversations less daunting and more constructive.

Don't miss out on the chance to enhance your leadership skills and turn challenging dialogues into opportunities for development and improvement.

Buy Marlene's Latest Book

Find Marlene online: https://marlenechism.com/

Connect with Marlene on LinkedIn

Mentioned in this episode:

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Transcript
Dallas Burnett:

Hey everybody.

Dallas Burnett:

We're talking to Marlene Chisholm today.

Dallas Burnett:

What an amazing woman.

Dallas Burnett:

She works with leaders to build drama free cultures that drive

Dallas Burnett:

growth and reduce costly mistakes.

Dallas Burnett:

She's also a great new friend of mine.

Dallas Burnett:

You don't want to miss.

Dallas Burnett:

This incredible conversation.

Dallas Burnett:

Welcome.

Dallas Burnett:

Welcome.

Dallas Burnett:

Welcome.

Dallas Burnett:

I am Dallas Burnett sitting in my 1905 Koch brothers barber chair in

Dallas Burnett:

thrive studios, but more importantly, we have a great guest today.

Dallas Burnett:

I know you guys are gonna be super excited about, she has authored

Dallas Burnett:

not one, not two, not three.

Dallas Burnett:

But four books and as an expert in anger management, difficult conversations,

Dallas Burnett:

working with high conflict people, and has LinkedIn courses on all these topics.

Dallas Burnett:

Wow.

Dallas Burnett:

Welcome to the show, Marlene.

Marlene Chism:

Hey, thanks for having me.

Dallas Burnett:

,I really like your, content and the books and all the LinkedIn

Dallas Burnett:

courses that you have inside just wanted to, we were so excited to get you on the

Dallas Burnett:

show today to talk because people that are listening to the show obviously are having

Dallas Burnett:

to have these difficult conversations, and having to have conflict and deal

Dallas Burnett:

with this conflict at work all the time.

Dallas Burnett:

So I think you're very, you're in a great space.

Dallas Burnett:

And so we're excited.

Dallas Burnett:

Okay.

Dallas Burnett:

But.

Dallas Burnett:

Tell us first, how does, how did Marlene get to be this speaker,

Dallas Burnett:

consultant, author of all these books?

Dallas Burnett:

Where, what, how, what's your journey like?

Dallas Burnett:

Wow.

Marlene Chism:

You know, I was a worker bee for 21 years.

Marlene Chism:

And so I got a lot of experience on those front lines and their workplaces in

Marlene Chism:

some ways have changed since that time.

Marlene Chism:

But they're also very alike in certain ways in that.

Marlene Chism:

There can be pockets of toxicity and cultures due to the management,

Marlene Chism:

due to the frontline leaders, even that are difficult to see if you

Marlene Chism:

haven't been at that frontline level.

Marlene Chism:

And so I just got to see that.

Marlene Chism:

And I wanted something more.

Marlene Chism:

I'd been there 21 years.

Marlene Chism:

And I thought.

Marlene Chism:

what is it I would like to do?

Marlene Chism:

And I went on this journey and I call that journey, the three life tragedies.

Marlene Chism:

And the first tragedy is, you want something more, but

Marlene Chism:

you don't know what it is.

Marlene Chism:

The second one is, you know what it is, but you don't think it's possible.

Marlene Chism:

And the third one is, you know what it is, you think it's possible, but

Marlene Chism:

now you have to be willing to jump.

Marlene Chism:

And so what I did was once I started thinking it was possible, I came to

Marlene Chism:

what I call that fulcrum point of change where you have to make a decision

Marlene Chism:

and I really still wasn't clear, even though a lot of what I work with now is

Marlene Chism:

clarity and I help leaders with their clarity, but the clarity I had was this.

Marlene Chism:

I'm not sure what I want and not even sure I can do what I think I want,

Marlene Chism:

but what I do know is this isn't it.

Marlene Chism:

And that's my decision making point to jump off, finish up my master's degree.

Marlene Chism:

My master's degree was in, the capstone was drama in the workplace

Marlene Chism:

hampers productivity, the effect of relationships on the bottom line.

Marlene Chism:

And I just started seeing how, Health issues happen from toxicity,

Marlene Chism:

absenteeism, the keeping of employees, the talent management, everything has

Marlene Chism:

to do with drama in the workplace.

Marlene Chism:

And I just started seeing how all the dots connected and that began my journey and

Marlene Chism:

my journey started out as professional speaking, and then it evolved over time.

Dallas Burnett:

Oh my goodness.

Dallas Burnett:

So what was the hardest part about making the jump from, you said, worker

Dallas Burnett:

B to professional speaker, and you've got a master's in between all that.

Dallas Burnett:

So when you're in your journey, when you said, defining what it is

Dallas Burnett:

and then is it possible and then taking the jump for you, what was

Dallas Burnett:

that hardest part of that process?

Marlene Chism:

I think that we're either, pulled by pleasure pushed by pain.

Marlene Chism:

So I guess for both of those things for me is that it was pain.

Marlene Chism:

I saw in my mind's eye and I was around 40, but.

Marlene Chism:

Probably started this journey of wanting something more.

Marlene Chism:

It lasted for five years, probably from 35 to 40.

Marlene Chism:

I think that's pretty common.

Marlene Chism:

People go through a midlife pre midlife crisis of knowing that,

Marlene Chism:

wow, the good fairy is not coming.

Marlene Chism:

The slippers not going to fit.

Marlene Chism:

The great pumpkin isn't going to arrive.

Marlene Chism:

And so you, and so I think it was this pain.

Marlene Chism:

And I say that I saw a big retirement cake coming my way at the age of 65 or 70.

Marlene Chism:

And I thought to myself, if I don't choose something, That's going to be

Marlene Chism:

my reality because there's not going to be something magical just occur.

Marlene Chism:

I have to take personal responsibility and that's in it of my work

Marlene Chism:

is personal responsibility.

Marlene Chism:

But that fear of not having explored or even failed was worse than the thought

Marlene Chism:

of failing or not knowing what I want.

Marlene Chism:

And so I just couldn't imagine that.

Marlene Chism:

Was that reality?

Marlene Chism:

And I'm 65 now, so I like I've had that journey of knowing that if I wouldn't

Marlene Chism:

have taken that leap, I would be receiving my watch and a free chicken dinner and

Marlene Chism:

an extra 15 minute break and I'd have a nice 401k and I could then hire and

Marlene Chism:

still not know any more than I knew.

Marlene Chism:

And that was going to be my reality if I didn't choose.

Dallas Burnett:

Wow, man, that's awesome.

Dallas Burnett:

I think that's fantastic.

Dallas Burnett:

I love your, of your point about, I love your point about how the wake up

Dallas Burnett:

call was accepting the responsibility for creating the new path and it

Dallas Burnett:

wasn't like you blamed where you were, it wasn't like you were, you said,

Dallas Burnett:

I'm going to get a retirement cake.

Dallas Burnett:

You're not like this company I'm with is terrible.

Dallas Burnett:

They're bad people for giving me a retirement kit.

Dallas Burnett:

You're saying, nah, it's just, it's not for me.

Dallas Burnett:

It's not what I want.

Dallas Burnett:

And so I think that's really healthy.

Marlene Chism:

And, you know, it's interesting because I understood

Marlene Chism:

this on some level that it's not a powerful place to be when you're

Marlene Chism:

blaming the place that's paying you and providing your living to make them

Marlene Chism:

the bad guy, because it's your choice.

Marlene Chism:

You don't have to work there.

Marlene Chism:

There are other choices.

Marlene Chism:

And I often say that the 1st, part of responsibility is

Marlene Chism:

the recognition of choice.

Marlene Chism:

what I tried to do, and I couldn't see my choices is to say, Even though

Marlene Chism:

I don't know what's out there, even though I don't know what other people

Marlene Chism:

do and how they've built careers and how I was asleep at the wheel for

Marlene Chism:

these years, what I do know is that they do reimburse for college credits.

Marlene Chism:

So here's a choice I can take my next step could be to take

Marlene Chism:

1 class and see what I think.

Marlene Chism:

I do know that they are helping me to have a home that I'm paying for.

Marlene Chism:

I do know that they're providing me opportunities to put money in 401k.

Marlene Chism:

Even if I don't understand that, they are providing things that

Marlene Chism:

I don't necessarily understand.

Marlene Chism:

So I'll take the choices I know, and from that you build more choices.

Marlene Chism:

But if you're constantly the victim where, they're a terrible place to

Marlene Chism:

work, and you're just a cog in a wheel, and all that is probably true as well.

Marlene Chism:

But, it goes along with what I learned in narrative coaching.

Marlene Chism:

that your story is the source of your suffering.

Marlene Chism:

So when you're telling yourself negative things about people in your life or your

Marlene Chism:

circumstances, it's not that there's not facts around that, but the narrative

Marlene Chism:

that you have about yourself, about other people and about circumstances are

Marlene Chism:

going to either get you out of prison or, set you free or keep you in prison.

Dallas Burnett:

Yeah.

Dallas Burnett:

Yeah.

Dallas Burnett:

That's really good.

Dallas Burnett:

I love that your story is a source of your sufferings.

Dallas Burnett:

I think that is so true.

Dallas Burnett:

Oh, that is so true.

Dallas Burnett:

And, I couldn't agree more.

Dallas Burnett:

So let's talk about this.

Dallas Burnett:

. You've actually just come out recently with, your latest

Dallas Burnett:

book is conflict to courage.

Dallas Burnett:

What was something that inspired you or was there a kind of an aha moment

Dallas Burnett:

or an inspiration behind this book?

Marlene Chism:

Yes, but yes, there was, I had been doing some

Marlene Chism:

work on difficult conversations.

Marlene Chism:

I had been hired by a large franchise organization to train their franchisees

Marlene Chism:

so that they could be better leaders and learn how to have difficult conversations.

Marlene Chism:

and I, the reason that had happened is because I started seeing patterns

Marlene Chism:

in the workplace that every big problem that emerged could be

Marlene Chism:

traced back to a conversation that should have happened, but did not.

Marlene Chism:

So I did for 12 or 13 years, I was part of this leadership academy.

Marlene Chism:

That one little part I developed and delivered several times a year.

Marlene Chism:

And then when COVID hit, it was really interesting because I thought, my

Marlene Chism:

business might just come to an end and.

Marlene Chism:

In a way, there was a freedom with that, because I thought, if that

Marlene Chism:

happens, I have an excuse coven happen.

Marlene Chism:

I, you know, I didn't really be any more successful than

Marlene Chism:

I was because coven happened.

Marlene Chism:

And I have to just I've learned about releasing resistance.

Marlene Chism:

So I'm just going to accept that.

Marlene Chism:

And in that releasing finally, after that wasn't a problem if that happened.

Marlene Chism:

I thought, life is going to go on.

Marlene Chism:

I truly believe that.

Marlene Chism:

And everybody else is freaking out.

Marlene Chism:

I've already had my freak out.

Marlene Chism:

And that was when I left my factory job, right?

Marlene Chism:

I'm not going to freak out now.

Marlene Chism:

I know what that feels like.

Marlene Chism:

You just need to grab ahold of yourself.

Marlene Chism:

So I thought maybe how I could be productive is to think, and this was

Marlene Chism:

magical thinking, but it worked for me.

Marlene Chism:

I thought the good fairy is going to come along and someone's

Marlene Chism:

going to offer me a book deal.

Marlene Chism:

I don't know how it's going to happen, but I think it's going to happen.

Marlene Chism:

And so I started writing.

Marlene Chism:

So I started writing a proposal for difficult conversations and fast

Marlene Chism:

forward in two months or so, I got an outreach by someone that was my

Marlene Chism:

first acquisitions person at LinkedIn, who was now an editor, a publisher

Marlene Chism:

at a British, publishing house.

Marlene Chism:

She said, are you working on anything?

Marlene Chism:

And I said, I am, but it's really crappy.

Marlene Chism:

I said, I'm glad to send it over.

Marlene Chism:

Cause you don't normally do that.

Marlene Chism:

Normally it's polished.

Marlene Chism:

It's perfect.

Marlene Chism:

You don't have those kinds of conversations, but it's.

Marlene Chism:

Open.

Marlene Chism:

She's trying to do business too.

Marlene Chism:

So I said, I can send it.

Marlene Chism:

Just ignore all the typos and it's not that organized, but

Marlene Chism:

I'm glad to show it to you.

Marlene Chism:

She's I love this.

Marlene Chism:

I love this.

Marlene Chism:

So we started talking and she said, the problem is we just published

Marlene Chism:

1 on difficult conversations.

Marlene Chism:

They would come out too close together.

Marlene Chism:

Would you mind doing something on conflict?

Marlene Chism:

And I thought I've always been good at when something's really close to what I

Marlene Chism:

teach to expanding my knowledge and doing the research and making distinctions.

Marlene Chism:

And I said, sure.

Marlene Chism:

The bottom line is I rewrote it three times and it didn't get accepted.

Marlene Chism:

And it was devastating at the time because it ruined my story, my narrative.

Marlene Chism:

This is just going to be the magic fairy.

Marlene Chism:

And he said, this is really weird.

Marlene Chism:

She said, I've only had two books that I've worked that hard on myself.

Marlene Chism:

Cause they have to do work too, to try to pitch it and polish it.

Marlene Chism:

And she said, this is only the second one that hasn't published.

Marlene Chism:

She said, I'm devastated too, but they don't like it.

Marlene Chism:

They think it's too, your book is too much, too motivational,

Marlene Chism:

too personal development.

Marlene Chism:

It's not, it's in other words, it's not dry enough and it's not academic

Dallas Burnett:

Oh my gosh.

Marlene Chism:

I thought

Marlene Chism:

that's because I'm not going to be who I'm not.

Marlene Chism:

I am.

Marlene Chism:

I'm going to be happy.

Marlene Chism:

I'm not even going to take 1 moment of sadness and I just decided that

Marlene Chism:

and I said, this is unheard of too.

Marlene Chism:

I said, could you introduce me to a different publisher?

Marlene Chism:

Because usually they don't do that.

Marlene Chism:

And she said, I will.

Marlene Chism:

She said, I will.

Marlene Chism:

And that was, I got Barrett Kohler and they published it.

Marlene Chism:

I told them, I said, I'll rewrite it 1 time, but I'm like, at the

Marlene Chism:

certain age, this was pretty, Yeah.

Marlene Chism:

entitled of me in a certain way, and I might be different even

Marlene Chism:

two years later, but I said, I'm only willing to rewrite it once.

Marlene Chism:

Because if we're not clicking, if there's drama in the boat, there's going to

Marlene Chism:

be drama on the island, and I'm just not going to be different than I am.

Marlene Chism:

Either you like where I'm coming from or you don't, and it's okay if you don't.

Marlene Chism:

It's just dating.

Marlene Chism:

Don't waste time if the second date is horrible.

Marlene Chism:

You know what I mean?

Marlene Chism:

And so I just decided that, and he said, I've never heard an author

Marlene Chism:

talk to a publisher like that.

Marlene Chism:

And I said, I'm just saving time.

Marlene Chism:

It's no means of disrespect.

Marlene Chism:

No reason to appease or pretend or avoid.

Marlene Chism:

Let's just tell the truth that we're not a fit and okay, and it worked.

Dallas Burnett:

Wow, man, that's incredible.

Dallas Burnett:

So you'd already started riding it when you go on this rollercoaster

Dallas Burnett:

ride, you think this is the, this is my ticket, this is my magical fairy.

Dallas Burnett:

And then it doesn't have, but you keep plugging away.

Dallas Burnett:

I love the boldness that you have.

Dallas Burnett:

And I think it speaks to, conflict and courage.

Dallas Burnett:

cause even in this situation, you kind of were demonstrating that in the sense

Dallas Burnett:

that you're having this conversation with this person that's pitching your

Dallas Burnett:

book and it's I don't understand.

Dallas Burnett:

It's not going well.

Dallas Burnett:

Even though your conflict with that person's not, you're really having

Dallas Burnett:

conflict with the publisher cause they weren't publishing the book.

Dallas Burnett:

, but , took a lot of courage for you to tell the person, Hey,

Dallas Burnett:

I know this is not the norm.

Dallas Burnett:

I know this is not what we normally see, but.

Dallas Burnett:

I need you to get me out of this game.

Dallas Burnett:

Put me in a different game.

Dallas Burnett:

Give me another publisher.

Dallas Burnett:

And because of that, it worked out.

Dallas Burnett:

So I think that's really cool.

Dallas Burnett:

can you tell us some, I would love to know when we talk about conflict, what

Dallas Burnett:

is some of the most difficult conflicts that you've seen in working with teams in

Dallas Burnett:

leaders, because 10 percent are leading teams, they are leading organizations.

Dallas Burnett:

I'm just leading families.

Dallas Burnett:

But what, when you think about conflicts, what's some of the most difficult

Dallas Burnett:

conflicts to navigate in your opinion?

Marlene Chism:

Love that question because here's a tenet of my work is

Marlene Chism:

that conflict itself is not the problem.

Marlene Chism:

We all think it's a problem.

Marlene Chism:

Then we've got the motivational speakers that says that helps you grow.

Marlene Chism:

Y'all didn't embrace the island.

Marlene Chism:

I'm not that person.

Marlene Chism:

I don't like it.

Marlene Chism:

I don't want to embrace it.

Marlene Chism:

Like I know it to pretend it does.

Marlene Chism:

My saying, though, is that conflict itself is not the problem, mismanagement

Marlene Chism:

is the problem, because the more complex our world gets, and the more

Marlene Chism:

divided we get politically and so on, conflict is going to be there,

Marlene Chism:

but it itself is not the problem.

Marlene Chism:

The problem is how we manage or mismanage it.

Marlene Chism:

What the 1st way that we mismanage conflict is in the way we define it.

Marlene Chism:

So we think of it as, oh, they're going to, I'm going to lose my favor

Marlene Chism:

with them, or they're going to yell.

Marlene Chism:

We're going to scream.

Marlene Chism:

I don't like them.

Marlene Chism:

They're hard to get along.

Marlene Chism:

We do all that kind of stuff.

Marlene Chism:

We get in the way with all these stories and narratives.

Marlene Chism:

If you can stop for a moment, say, okay, what is conflict?

Marlene Chism:

it's opposing drives, desires, and demands.

Marlene Chism:

So if you think of two arrows going in opposite directions, and you say,

Marlene Chism:

okay, I feel this anger toward them, or this fear toward them, but let

Marlene Chism:

me take a step back and say, what it's opposing drives, desires, and

Marlene Chism:

demands, just like with my publisher.

Marlene Chism:

She's not my enemy.

Marlene Chism:

She has to work with her people that's in charge of her.

Marlene Chism:

And there's an opposing drive that they have that I can't possibly understand.

Marlene Chism:

And I don't need to understand it because they're the decision

Marlene Chism:

maker and they said, no.

Marlene Chism:

So it's an opposing drive, desire, demand.

Marlene Chism:

If they're not willing to further the conversation, they have a right.

Marlene Chism:

As the leader to decide, and I have a right as someone that may or may not want

Marlene Chism:

to work with them to decide differently.

Marlene Chism:

So if it's opposing drives, desires and demands, and you really believe

Marlene Chism:

that it makes you curious, because even if you don't win, you go,

Marlene Chism:

this may not be my right publisher, but what drive did they have?

Marlene Chism:

Because now you've got new Intel for the future.

Marlene Chism:

You're not like freaking out when they were terrible.

Marlene Chism:

They only wanted to, and so you say, it was a different drive and I wasn't.

Marlene Chism:

In that direction, because they already had one that was

Marlene Chism:

on difficult conversations.

Marlene Chism:

They wanted mine to be more academic and more like what I would call

Marlene Chism:

dry, not my type of writing.

Marlene Chism:

And so it's not going to work out anyway, because they're not open to any way.

Marlene Chism:

And I don't want to change.

Marlene Chism:

So there we are.

Marlene Chism:

so opposing drives, desires and demands.

Marlene Chism:

And so once that's the 1st mismanagement, then the, and I

Marlene Chism:

know I'm talking generally here.

Marlene Chism:

I'm glad to get into some specifics if you want that.

Marlene Chism:

But once you understand the foundation of it, it becomes pretty easy.

Marlene Chism:

And so the ways that I see managers mismanaged conflict is

Marlene Chism:

what I call the 3 a's, which is avoiding appeasing and aggression.

Marlene Chism:

And avoiders know that they avoid.

Marlene Chism:

They're, they will say things like, I hate conflict.

Marlene Chism:

I try my best.

Marlene Chism:

I just, I put things off if I need to have a conversation.

Marlene Chism:

I know that I avoid and I'm so scared to learn the skills

Marlene Chism:

because it just feels bad.

Marlene Chism:

They know that.

Marlene Chism:

The other two don't know that they avoid, like appeasers.

Marlene Chism:

They just view themselves as I'm just congenial.

Marlene Chism:

I'm just, I like people.

Marlene Chism:

I'm a people person.

Marlene Chism:

And what they do is they say things like, love your idea.

Marlene Chism:

I love it.

Marlene Chism:

Love you.

Marlene Chism:

And they don't love it.

Marlene Chism:

And they're not going to go tell the boss what this person thought, because

Marlene Chism:

they're just playing both sides of it.

Marlene Chism:

I love you.

Marlene Chism:

Gotcha.

Marlene Chism:

It's great.

Marlene Chism:

Glad you engaged, but like glad you engaged.

Marlene Chism:

However, the reason this won't work is this.

Marlene Chism:

And I want you to be educated on that because I love your engagement.

Marlene Chism:

However, okay.

Marlene Chism:

This tells me you need to learn more about business operations.

Marlene Chism:

And I'm glad to train you on that.

Marlene Chism:

that's a different conversation.

Marlene Chism:

Then you're engaging, love it on the agenda for next quarter.

Marlene Chism:

So those are the appeasers.

Marlene Chism:

They tell people let's do lunch, like it, gotcha.

Marlene Chism:

We'll put it on the calendar and they don't.

Marlene Chism:

And then you're wondering, they're so nice.

Marlene Chism:

How could they do that?

Marlene Chism:

Oh, they're just forgetful.

Marlene Chism:

Cause they're so nice.

Marlene Chism:

There's really this price to being nice because being nice Is in favor

Marlene Chism:

of honesty and truth and elevation.

Marlene Chism:

That's the, that's another kind of avoiding.

Marlene Chism:

And those people do not know they avoid, aggression.

Marlene Chism:

People that are very aggressive also do not know they avoid.

Marlene Chism:

And I had a very aggressive boss when I worked in the factory, but aggressive

Marlene Chism:

people feel, and this is so interesting on surveys, they always give themselves

Marlene Chism:

nines and tens on how effective they are at difficult conversations.

Marlene Chism:

What that really means is I'm going to bully my way to you acquiescing to me.

Marlene Chism:

And I feel great about it because I won and I, this is

Marlene Chism:

how the cow eats the cabbage.

Marlene Chism:

I will tell you what to do and you're going to do it.

Marlene Chism:

And people know who's the boss, the buck stops here.

Marlene Chism:

But the truth is people don't like those kinds of leaders.

Marlene Chism:

They don't feel like they got their back.

Marlene Chism:

There's no intimacy.

Marlene Chism:

There's no real conversation.

Marlene Chism:

We already know what that boss is going to say.

Marlene Chism:

I didn't ask you to work here.

Marlene Chism:

That's just the way it is.

Marlene Chism:

And if you don't like it, find yourself another place to work while

Marlene Chism:

that person's beating their chest going, God, I'm so good at this.

Marlene Chism:

They're terrible.

Marlene Chism:

So they don't know they avoid personal growth, development, critical thinking.

Marlene Chism:

They're avoiding those things in favor of just getting something done to look good.

Marlene Chism:

So it's all avoiding.

Marlene Chism:

And that is how a conflict is mismanaged.

Marlene Chism:

And I see it all the way from the top to the front line.

Dallas Burnett:

so you said the three A's avoiding appealing aggressive,

Dallas Burnett:

but really avoiding is undergirds.

Dallas Burnett:

All of those is just

Dallas Burnett:

whether or not you're actually

Dallas Burnett:

aware, aware if you're avoiding or not, so if you are.

Dallas Burnett:

, let's say one of our listeners is, an aggressive, they, or maybe they were

Dallas Burnett:

listening just now and they went, Oh my gosh, I thought I was the one

Dallas Burnett:

that handled those conversations.

Dallas Burnett:

She just nailed me right between the eyes when she said that, what is

Dallas Burnett:

someone that lacks awareness, whether it's appeasing or aggressive, how

Dallas Burnett:

can they combat their, their, un, unawareness of the, of how they, avoid

Marlene Chism:

I think they'll want to learn, they'll say, okay,

Marlene Chism:

there's, what do I need to learn?

Marlene Chism:

First of all, it'll be like, it'll be, it'll hurt at first.

Marlene Chism:

There's two sayings.

Marlene Chism:

The truth will hurt or the truth will set you free.

Marlene Chism:

If it hurts, then you have an ego where you need to be important, you

Marlene Chism:

need to be right, and you're going to appease because you're just a nice

Marlene Chism:

person on the disc, you're an S, and if you're rude and aggressive, you're

Marlene Chism:

a D on the disc, and you need to be right, because that's just the way you

Marlene Chism:

are, and you're just being authentic.

Marlene Chism:

you can either make excuses, or you can make growth happen, right?

Marlene Chism:

if you want to grow, you're going to, what you're going to bump up

Marlene Chism:

against, and this is the shortcut.

Marlene Chism:

There's two things you probably need to look at your inner

Marlene Chism:

game and your outer game.

Marlene Chism:

So your outer game is the skills development.

Marlene Chism:

And most organizations, if they offer development to the mid and frontline,

Marlene Chism:

which they don't very often, but if they do, it's something like, I love

Marlene Chism:

LinkedIn cause I have courses there.

Marlene Chism:

It's something like that where it's all digital or it's some

Marlene Chism:

sort of a course that, someone got their certification from.

Marlene Chism:

5 dysfunctions of the team and they have a trainer come in and

Marlene Chism:

it's pretty surface in my opinion.

Marlene Chism:

And I love those authors and so on too, but it's not coaching and it's not

Marlene Chism:

real deep self awareness and practice.

Marlene Chism:

It's just an idea or an understanding of it intellectually, which only

Marlene Chism:

gets you so far unless you're a real self development person.

Marlene Chism:

the idea is going to be well, I think I need skills development

Marlene Chism:

and skills is part of the equation.

Marlene Chism:

The other part of the equation, though, is what I call the inner game.

Marlene Chism:

And that's your fortitude, your character, your self awareness, the

Marlene Chism:

feeling of fear when you have to have that conversation and you do it anyway,

Marlene Chism:

and you get coaching and mentoring.

Marlene Chism:

That's an expansiveness internally.

Marlene Chism:

So that's inner growth and very few people focus on inner growth.

Marlene Chism:

They focus on skills and what they don't realize is they focus on skills

Marlene Chism:

for the purpose of manipulating and changing someone else,

Marlene Chism:

not

Marlene Chism:

for the purpose of you being a better person and learning to radically listen,

Marlene Chism:

saying something just the right way.

Marlene Chism:

So it worked.

Marlene Chism:

They did it.

Marlene Chism:

And I teach those skills, but there's always underneath it is the right

Marlene Chism:

intention, because without that, people feel it all the way to the bank and back.

Dallas Burnett:

Wow.

Dallas Burnett:

That is such an amazing statement.

Dallas Burnett:

I love that you correlated the outer game and when someone is pushing you into that,

Dallas Burnett:

or you're doing that a lot of times it's to manipulate or change someone else, I

Dallas Burnett:

think that is a natural because it's easy.

Dallas Burnett:

It's easy to see.

Dallas Burnett:

It's easy to address.

Dallas Burnett:

It's easy to go to link, like you said, LinkedIn hit the

Dallas Burnett:

course, get this, check this

Marlene Chism:

I got my

Marlene Chism:

certification!

Marlene Chism:

I

Dallas Burnett:

I've got the certification.

Dallas Burnett:

I could be the worst at whatever that is, but I've got the certification

Dallas Burnett:

and I think that's so true.

Dallas Burnett:

And I love how you talked about that from a mindset standpoint,

Dallas Burnett:

if I can get you to think well, then the rest will fall in place.

Dallas Burnett:

You can learn what you need to learn, but if I can get you to think well

Dallas Burnett:

in alignment, that's really good.

Dallas Burnett:

So if someone was working and had either, they were leading a team or coaching

Dallas Burnett:

someone and the person that they were coaching was aggressive or appeasing.

Dallas Burnett:

What advice would you give a leader that's trying to deal with employees

Dallas Burnett:

on their team that are just really, they, they create a lot of conflict.

Dallas Burnett:

, Marlene Chism: what you're going to hear when you have to work with someone

Dallas Burnett:

that's very defensive or aggressive, you want to avoid that conversation because

Dallas Burnett:

there's a saying I already know what they're going to say they're going to

Dallas Burnett:

get defensive and they're going to say something to derail the conversation.

Dallas Burnett:

They're going to say, look, that's not fair.

Dallas Burnett:

Or I'm feeling harassed, or you ought to hear what other people are saying

Dallas Burnett:

about your leadership because what they're trying to do, I say, they're

Dallas Burnett:

the fishermen and you're the carp and they throw a big, juicy worm on there.

Dallas Burnett:

And you're going to bite that worm and get hooked into this different conversation.

Dallas Burnett:

So you have to be aware of these.

Dallas Burnett:

they're they're not intentional.

Dallas Burnett:

People aren't that manipulative to where they're intending.

Dallas Burnett:

I'm going to say this.

Dallas Burnett:

They don't do that.

Dallas Burnett:

It just happens because we human beings defend ourselves when we feel threatened.

Dallas Burnett:

The primal brain goes into.

Dallas Burnett:

Revival mode in the front prefrontal cortex shuts down.

Dallas Burnett:

So it's not like someone plans it.

Dallas Burnett:

It's just what people do.

Dallas Burnett:

So you can't be real psychological about all this and say, Oh, they planned that.

Dallas Burnett:

Now that's just what they do.

Dallas Burnett:

So you've got to be ready that it's going to happen.

Dallas Burnett:

And then you're going to hear something like, look, I'm just being authentic.

Dallas Burnett:

do you want me to be fake?

Dallas Burnett:

I'm just a straight shooter.

Dallas Burnett:

They're going to say something like that.

Dallas Burnett:

So you're going to listen and you're going to say, here's a question.

Dallas Burnett:

is that who you want to be?

Dallas Burnett:

Like, because really, it doesn't matter.

Dallas Burnett:

I can be authentic to all parts of myself.

Dallas Burnett:

I can be the three year old that's disappointed and throws a fit and pouts

Dallas Burnett:

and doesn't talk to you for two days.

Dallas Burnett:

I can be authentic.

Dallas Burnett:

I'm just being authentic.

Dallas Burnett:

Or I can say, yeah, that's what I feel like doing, that there's a part of me

Dallas Burnett:

that wants to grow, so I'm going to take a moment, ask for a boundary of

Dallas Burnett:

time, and then we're going to do it.

Dallas Burnett:

Get back in the conversation.

Dallas Burnett:

I can be authentic to that.

Dallas Burnett:

And that's still authentic.

Dallas Burnett:

Even though I feel angry, even though I feel discounted, it's

Dallas Burnett:

still authentic because my bigger authenticity is I want to grow.

Dallas Burnett:

So what you want to do is inspire people to look at themselves

Dallas Burnett:

and to say, is this who you are?

Dallas Burnett:

Is this who you want to be?

Dallas Burnett:

This is the business.

Dallas Burnett:

This is what this is costing our business when you do X, Y, and Z.

Dallas Burnett:

So when I'm teaching conversations about difficult.

Dallas Burnett:

when I'm teaching my process for difficult conversations, there's

Dallas Burnett:

actually a process you work through before you even have the conversation.

Dallas Burnett:

But what you want to be able to do is speak to the observable behavior, not

Dallas Burnett:

to your perception of what's going on.

Dallas Burnett:

Look, you're just trying to intimidate everybody.

Dallas Burnett:

Look, you just think that you're all that in a bag of chips, and

Dallas Burnett:

you're trying to intimidate.

Dallas Burnett:

nope, that's just your story about it.

Dallas Burnett:

But you could say, Ralph, I noticed last week in the meeting, you

Dallas Burnett:

interrupted Susan three times and then when John brought up another point,

Dallas Burnett:

you rolled your eyes and you crossed your arms and everybody shut down.

Dallas Burnett:

Not anyone participated after that.

Dallas Burnett:

Did you recognize that?

Dallas Burnett:

I was just being authentic.

Dallas Burnett:

I understand, but here's the question.

Dallas Burnett:

Are you committed to others engaging and hearing other points of view?

Dallas Burnett:

Because that's what I need.

Dallas Burnett:

And this is how this is affecting our team.

Dallas Burnett:

Yeah.

Marlene Chism:

if I say that this is a behavior, I'm not judging

Marlene Chism:

you and your character, but I'm saying this is what you do.

Marlene Chism:

This is how this is affecting our team.

Marlene Chism:

Walk me through what's going on for you when you do that.

Marlene Chism:

Well, I just don't think people should be so stupid.

Marlene Chism:

I just think they ought to get it and do their homework, whatever and say, okay,

Marlene Chism:

so when I, when you say that, that sounds to me, like, there's a lot of persecution

Marlene Chism:

and judgment of your team members.

Marlene Chism:

And this is also a problem with how we interact with each other.

Marlene Chism:

Are you hearing that?

Marlene Chism:

If I called you stupid, how would you respond to that?

Marlene Chism:

Well, I mean, I don't know.

Marlene Chism:

I'm just, it's just how I talk.

Marlene Chism:

You're going to get.

Dallas Burnett:

I've had.

Dallas Burnett:

It's so funny.

Dallas Burnett:

It's so close to conversations that I've had with people in the past.

Dallas Burnett:

It's just fascinating.

Dallas Burnett:

It's awesome.

Dallas Burnett:

Oh, that's so good.

Marlene Chism:

so you start from a higher place of what you do is you

Marlene Chism:

clear your own energy and you don't get triggered and you know that they're going

Marlene Chism:

to try to trigger you because that's what people do when they shut down.

Marlene Chism:

You would do it too.

Marlene Chism:

If it was you and you're being called out on something that you weren't aware of.

Marlene Chism:

So just be fair about that, but clean your own energy and see them in the

Marlene Chism:

fullness of who they could be with some development, because when you envision

Marlene Chism:

that person to be, Whether it's a better leader and better team player,

Marlene Chism:

because they obviously have some skills and talents they bring to the table.

Marlene Chism:

So you can always say, here is the vision.

Marlene Chism:

I have it.

Marlene Chism:

You said you wanted to be the supervisor.

Marlene Chism:

You said that.

Marlene Chism:

Do you still want that?

Marlene Chism:

Ralph?

Marlene Chism:

Well, I do.

Marlene Chism:

And I think I'm a great leader.

Marlene Chism:

I'm a great I do.

Marlene Chism:

I do the best of anyone here.

Marlene Chism:

Of course you do.

Marlene Chism:

you're a performer.

Marlene Chism:

However, the skills of being a leader are different than being a worker.

Marlene Chism:

And so I want to explain that to you.

Marlene Chism:

because this is how you'll have to shape yourself and work on your inner game.

Marlene Chism:

If you want to do that, and so once they, once it makes sense to them, because

Marlene Chism:

a lot of people, especially, and I was on those factory floors, and I thought

Marlene Chism:

it was all about just if you're a good worker, you're good at everything else.

Marlene Chism:

That's not how it is.

Marlene Chism:

Honestly, there's things that I do with higher level leaders

Marlene Chism:

that I cannot do myself.

Marlene Chism:

And I always say, just consider me the bald man, telling Nadia to

Marlene Chism:

point her toe on the balance beam.

Marlene Chism:

You're Nadia, I'm the bald guy, and I couldn't do it this math, but I can

Marlene Chism:

tell you when your toes not pointed.

Dallas Burnett:

that's so good.

Dallas Burnett:

That's so good.

Dallas Burnett:

Oh, that's really great.

Dallas Burnett:

I love how you've positioned that.

Dallas Burnett:

If you're leading a team, there's so many things that you said that

Dallas Burnett:

resonated with me and a great deal.

Dallas Burnett:

Number one.

Dallas Burnett:

Where you started that all was if you're leading someone who is aggressive

Dallas Burnett:

or even appeasing, they're either creating conflict or doing things

Dallas Burnett:

or they're not handling it well.

Dallas Burnett:

The first thing that you led with was you want to inspire.

Dallas Burnett:

Those people, you want to inspire.

Dallas Burnett:

It's going to aggravate us because we're like, this is a thorn in

Dallas Burnett:

my side, if they would just do this we'd be so much better.

Dallas Burnett:

So you're already approaching this from a real, negative energy.

Dallas Burnett:

Like you said, I loved how you also said you got to clean your own energy first.

Marlene Chism:

you do.

Dallas Burnett:

and you got to do it, and that amazing.

Dallas Burnett:

So when I come to this person as a leader, if I sit down across from the person

Dallas Burnett:

and I'm already in a position where I'm frustrated at them already, then

Dallas Burnett:

it's just, it's going to go downhill.

Dallas Burnett:

I can't have this, conversation and keep it level because as soon as they come

Dallas Burnett:

back at me with something not relevant or out of it, I'm just going to boom.

Dallas Burnett:

Yeah.

Dallas Burnett:

It's going, it's off.

Dallas Burnett:

It's ready.

Dallas Burnett:

Yeah.

Marlene Chism:

We're going to go into the kill.

Dallas Burnett:

Yeah.

Marlene Chism:

We're going to go

Marlene Chism:

into the kill.

Marlene Chism:

And I often say, there's a couple of things you have to do.

Marlene Chism:

You have to get yourself centered first, but you have, I call

Marlene Chism:

it standing on the bridge.

Marlene Chism:

And I got that from an author, it might have been Gary Zukoff, I can't remember,

Marlene Chism:

but, and I hate to not give attribution, but the way that the language that I use,

Marlene Chism:

I call it the language of the island.

Marlene Chism:

we're in a boat, we're all on the boat, we're trying to get to the island.

Marlene Chism:

as a team, it's all of us trying to row together, but if people start

Marlene Chism:

beating each other with the oars.

Marlene Chism:

Then, and there's a leak in the boat.

Marlene Chism:

We, as the leader have to recognize that's happening.

Marlene Chism:

Otherwise, we're sitting there blaming the raging river.

Marlene Chism:

What you've got to do is stand up on the bridge and watch the beating and watch

Marlene Chism:

the draining and watch the island because then you can see that from perspective,

Marlene Chism:

you're not in there helping down the water yourself, trying to survive.

Marlene Chism:

This is what's happening and you can even say, look, we're beating

Marlene Chism:

each other with the oars here.

Marlene Chism:

Are we going?

Marlene Chism:

Are we rolling in the right direction?

Marlene Chism:

and the bully is going to say, look, I'm the 1 that's the best rower.

Marlene Chism:

So, yeah, I had to bop him over the head because they were being stupid.

Marlene Chism:

So, you know, you're like, yeah, but that's not the way we work as a team.

Marlene Chism:

Right?

Marlene Chism:

And you have to start to see.

Marlene Chism:

I say there's three positions in the boat.

Marlene Chism:

The top leader wants, they want to get to the treasure chest on the island.

Marlene Chism:

the manager wants everybody to row harder and faster and the rower just

Marlene Chism:

wants a better seat cushion on the boat.

Marlene Chism:

So we all want something different.

Marlene Chism:

And you have to stand on the bridge and say, are we talking about seat

Marlene Chism:

cushion, rowing or island right now?

Marlene Chism:

What are we talking about?

Dallas Burnett:

Wow.

Dallas Burnett:

I love that standing on the bridge.

Dallas Burnett:

Yeah.

Dallas Burnett:

And I think that's exactly right.

Dallas Burnett:

and I think that helps because you're when you're talking about leading others.

Dallas Burnett:

If you can separate yourself just a short distance, it helps you

Dallas Burnett:

get so much more perspective.

Dallas Burnett:

Like you said, and I think that's a great visual of that.

Dallas Burnett:

And I think too, it helps you see the event with more.

Dallas Burnett:

Empathy and more understanding so that you can approach it.

Dallas Burnett:

I love how you narrowed down the conflict to a behavior instead of a person.

Dallas Burnett:

And I think that also comes with that perspective.

Dallas Burnett:

If I'm looking, if I'm feeling like I'm looking at it from the bridge,

Dallas Burnett:

then I'm not feeling like I'm getting slapped in the face with these oars.

Dallas Burnett:

It's just, it just feels different to me.

Dallas Burnett:

So then I can approach those conversations with more maturity and

Dallas Burnett:

more level headedness and more empathy.

Dallas Burnett:

And I think that's so good and less likely to get triggered.

Dallas Burnett:

So I think that's really good.

Dallas Burnett:

I think that's great advice for the leaders out there and going

Dallas Burnett:

into, difficult conversations and managing sometimes difficult people.

Dallas Burnett:

Cause again, I think it goes back to, we really want to change people and grow

Dallas Burnett:

them, we have to give them something that they feel like they're capable of

Dallas Burnett:

changing and doing, it's If you give me something, if you made the comment,

Dallas Burnett:

the bald guy telling the point, if you said to that guy, no, you've got

Dallas Burnett:

to get up on the balance beam, point your toe, that's something that's

Dallas Burnett:

so far out of his, he can't do it.

Dallas Burnett:

He can't grasp that.

Dallas Burnett:

But if, when you, like you said earlier, when you relate it to behavior.

Dallas Burnett:

It's saying, Hey, look, you crossed your arms and lean

Dallas Burnett:

back and everybody disengaged.

Dallas Burnett:

Oh, if you don't cross your arms and don't lean back, then

Dallas Burnett:

everybody will stay engaged.

Dallas Burnett:

that's something I can manage.

Dallas Burnett:

Oh, I can do that or not do that.

Dallas Burnett:

And I think that's just a real simple, it's a fundamental, building block

Dallas Burnett:

of this, but I think you're very wise in, in, in giving that advice.

Marlene Chism:

what's fun to this is the really this shocks leaders because I

Marlene Chism:

say, there's a couple of ways to do this.

Marlene Chism:

Let's say that you're having a meeting and you've got, there's always, I

Marlene Chism:

don't know if you've ever experienced this, but in every corporate situation,

Marlene Chism:

whether it's manufacturing, whether it's whatever it is, there's always the 1

Marlene Chism:

spokesperson that and I told them in the meeting and everybody's yeah, you told

Marlene Chism:

that boss, when he was speaking, what about the firing that happened last week?

Marlene Chism:

I thought we were all about.

Marlene Chism:

Letting people be themselves, you wouldn't let him wear Yeah, that's right.

Marlene Chism:

They're incongruent, and but leaders don't know how to handle that whenever

Marlene Chism:

they're like, frontline or mid and even sometimes top leaders don't

Marlene Chism:

either, but they don't know what to do with that spokesperson, you've got

Marlene Chism:

to set expectations before a meeting.

Marlene Chism:

We're not going to be talking about the issue that happened 3 weeks ago.

Marlene Chism:

And if we do, that's going to be tabled.

Marlene Chism:

you have to do that.

Marlene Chism:

But if you don't, and someone starts spouting off and crossing there,

Marlene Chism:

I always just use the example of crossing their arms and rolling their

Marlene Chism:

eyes and letting out a big sigh.

Marlene Chism:

Right.

Marlene Chism:

You got a couple of choices.

Marlene Chism:

You can go, Hey, Cliff, did you disagree with, I noticed that you just crossed

Marlene Chism:

your arms and you rolled your eyes.

Marlene Chism:

Now you got to be careful because they might go off on a rail, but

Marlene Chism:

they, but usually it surprises people for you to say it in the moment of

Marlene Chism:

what they did not don't react to the.

Marlene Chism:

Behavior the meta message don't go.

Marlene Chism:

Okay.

Marlene Chism:

Look, we're not going to have like you don't get triggered I noticed

Marlene Chism:

that you it's very linear and logical and then they're going to go.

Marlene Chism:

Oh, no.

Marlene Chism:

No, Even if someone says something real sarcastic, was that supposed

Marlene Chism:

to hurt my feelings that sounded like that was a dig Oh my god.

Marlene Chism:

no.

Marlene Chism:

No, you're just too sensitive.

Marlene Chism:

They're always going to throw it back on you I was just cold and you're too

Marlene Chism:

sensitive and so So, so what you do is that what objection dies on agreement.

Marlene Chism:

So you go, I could be, but here's what I need from you.

Marlene Chism:

You don't go into the argument of, no, I'm not.

Marlene Chism:

That was what you were doing.

Marlene Chism:

I know what you intended.

Marlene Chism:

I'm not, I wasn't born yesterday.

Marlene Chism:

Now you're in a fight.

Marlene Chism:

Now you're in the island called verbal ping pong.

Marlene Chism:

You don't go there.

Marlene Chism:

You say, I could be, I can see why you might think that, but

Marlene Chism:

this is what I'm needing from you.

Marlene Chism:

had when I was at the frontline worker and I had these conversations

Marlene Chism:

with my boss from the lowest level.

Marlene Chism:

That's what gave me the courage to do it now.

Marlene Chism:

But I remember saying to him, you seem really unapproachable.

Marlene Chism:

And I picked up that buzzword because that was the big word they were

Marlene Chism:

teaching managers to be approachable.

Marlene Chism:

someone got their master's degree.

Marlene Chism:

And they were teaching people need to be approachable.

Marlene Chism:

This is the new thing.

Marlene Chism:

This is the new five, five ways you become a person.

Marlene Chism:

So we pick up on that right front lines.

Marlene Chism:

We know what the latest buzzword is quality circles and,

Marlene Chism:

black belt this and whatever.

Marlene Chism:

So we know those things.

Marlene Chism:

So I said, when you just seem really unapproachable when when you

Marlene Chism:

act like this, when you say these things, and he says to me, Okay.

Marlene Chism:

No one can make you feel anything without he was quoting Eleanor Roosevelt.

Marlene Chism:

No one can make you feel anything without your approval.

Marlene Chism:

And I said, perhaps that's true.

Marlene Chism:

But now that I've told you, if you keep doing it, you do it with knowledge.

Dallas Burnett:

Touche!

Dallas Burnett:

Ahahahaha!

Dallas Burnett:

Ahahaha!

Marlene Chism:

He never, he never did it again because I called him out.

Marlene Chism:

I need you to say you can justify it all day long.

Marlene Chism:

You can quote Eleanor Roosevelt.

Marlene Chism:

You can open up the Holy Bible, whatever you need to do.

Marlene Chism:

But I'm telling you that this bothers me and you continue to do it, which tells

Marlene Chism:

me you do it knowing it bothers me.

Marlene Chism:

And if I don't say anything, you can go, just your perception and

Marlene Chism:

no one can make you feel anything.

Dallas Burnett:

Yes, no, I think that's so true.

Dallas Burnett:

And it's probably he's had that quote from Eleanor Roosevelt for quite some time.

Dallas Burnett:

I'm sure he used it, ongoingly.

Dallas Burnett:

And a lot of people walked away just scratching their heads.

Dallas Burnett:

what's he talking about?

Dallas Burnett:

I guess it is right.

Dallas Burnett:

do I need to give him permission?

Dallas Burnett:

And then you just pinged him right between the eyes.

Marlene Chism:

why you don't really argue with their reasoning.

Marlene Chism:

You just go that's how they reason, right?

Marlene Chism:

And that's how they justify bad behavior.

Marlene Chism:

you just say, that could be, or, hey, you're just a, you're just a

Marlene Chism:

female and women are sensitive, I get that, that's probably right.

Marlene Chism:

Could be a hormonal day for me, but here's the thing.

Marlene Chism:

This is what I mean.

Dallas Burnett:

love that.

Dallas Burnett:

I love that.

Dallas Burnett:

That is so good.

Dallas Burnett:

Oh, you said it.

Dallas Burnett:

Objection dies with agreement.

Dallas Burnett:

that's the first time I've ever heard that and I love it.

Dallas Burnett:

And that's

Marlene Chism:

that was not my quote either.

Marlene Chism:

I think that person was Marilyn I think that's the right name, and it was an

Marlene Chism:

old sales book back in the 50s and 60s.

Marlene Chism:

They had some great books back then, like even Leading with Intimidation.

Marlene Chism:

There's all kinds of great titles to books, when you first read it, you're

Marlene Chism:

like, that sounds terrible, but it was really good what they taught.

Marlene Chism:

And these are I would say, on the border of manipulation.

Marlene Chism:

They're the outer game, it's the outer game that you have in your back pocket.

Dallas Burnett:

Yes.

Marlene Chism:

you do have to use it sparingly.

Marlene Chism:

Otherwise, you're just a sarcastic person that's memorized a bunch of one liners

Marlene Chism:

and I enjoy those because they're fun, but your real intention, like, I'm sarcastic.

Marlene Chism:

That's something I had to work on,

Dallas Burnett:

Yeah, no, you want to use them like a surgeon and a scalpel.

Dallas Burnett:

It's very like, you know, exactly when and how to apply it.

Dallas Burnett:

And if not, you're going to bludgeon someone with something that's

Dallas Burnett:

just not going to work out well.

Dallas Burnett:

So I agree, but I do think that principle is so fascinating because even if you

Dallas Burnett:

don't have the one line, come back the idea that, objection dies with agreement

Dallas Burnett:

is a, it's a principle like, because there is no objection if there's an agreement.

Dallas Burnett:

So let's figure this out and we can work together on, on that idea.

Dallas Burnett:

And so

Marlene Chism:

even if someone says,

Dallas Burnett:

something.

Marlene Chism:

even if someone says, that's not fair.

Marlene Chism:

To be able, you don't throw back.

Marlene Chism:

Well, no one ever said it was fair.

Marlene Chism:

you don't like, you don't just go, that can be true.

Marlene Chism:

There, there is a lot of things and I get that you perceive that and

Marlene Chism:

you can say, walk me through why you see it that way you could do that

Marlene Chism:

or you can say, I do understand.

Marlene Chism:

And unfortunately, I still have to implement.

Marlene Chism:

Regardless of what different people, this is coming from above

Marlene Chism:

and I have to support that and I do support it because of my role.

Marlene Chism:

I understand your role.

Marlene Chism:

And so we have to find a way to come together.

Marlene Chism:

Are you willing to explore that?

Marlene Chism:

so there's ways to still have the objections down

Marlene Chism:

agreement and not be sarcastic.

Marlene Chism:

I've been showcasing today.

Marlene Chism:

Those are just kind of things to do.

Marlene Chism:

But, really, it's coming from a philosophy.

Marlene Chism:

Like you said, if you've got a hammer, everything's a nail, I have lots of

Marlene Chism:

hammers and I used to use those all the time and my growth was to work

Marlene Chism:

on not doing things that come easy to me, which is to do the one liners and

Marlene Chism:

the sarcasm and those are easy for me.

Dallas Burnett:

it's conceding a small point to win the war.

Dallas Burnett:

You've expressed a problem and he's putting this.

Dallas Burnett:

You know, ridiculous saying that from quote from Eleanor on it and

Dallas Burnett:

what you're saying is, okay fine I'll I just won't argue that point.

Dallas Burnett:

i'll give it to you, but then you're going back You're just pulling it back

Dallas Burnett:

to the thing that's most important.

Dallas Burnett:

And I think about when you're dealing with conflict, I think that's really

Dallas Burnett:

trying to stay on the root of the issue and addressing that and not

Dallas Burnett:

getting it off on all these tangents.

Dallas Burnett:

Cause I think as team leaders, as business owners, when we engage in these

Dallas Burnett:

conversations, we're really trying to.

Dallas Burnett:

There's so much emotion going if even if whether we're in it or

Dallas Burnett:

whether we're on the bridge, there's so much motion going that it's

Dallas Burnett:

just really easy for things to go.

Dallas Burnett:

Cause people are deflecting and they're not wanting to take this.

Dallas Burnett:

They're throwing off on that and they're angry about this.

Dallas Burnett:

And then all these things come out.

Dallas Burnett:

So we've got all these deflections going on, but the real reason that

Dallas Burnett:

we're coming together is to solve this.

Dallas Burnett:

And sometimes it

Dallas Burnett:

gets that.

Dallas Burnett:

So I love

Dallas Burnett:

that.

Dallas Burnett:

You know, let's agree on all this other stuff for now, and

Dallas Burnett:

focus on what really matters.

Marlene Chism:

Yeah, that's how avoiding the distraction and setting like part of

Marlene Chism:

the I call performance coaching model.

Marlene Chism:

I also call it the blueprint for difficult conversations.

Marlene Chism:

But since there's so much coaching in it.

Marlene Chism:

I'm really referring to it as the performance coaching model

Marlene Chism:

and the very beginning of a difficult conversation after you've

Marlene Chism:

assessed and done your inner work.

Marlene Chism:

And you've looked at the, you looked at the behaviors and who you're

Marlene Chism:

talking to and what's going on.

Marlene Chism:

There's a method for that.

Marlene Chism:

Once you've got that done.

Marlene Chism:

And once you do it 2 or 3 times, you don't need to keep doing it

Marlene Chism:

that hard every time because it becomes a part of how you think.

Marlene Chism:

But the 1st thing you do is you set the intention.

Marlene Chism:

let's say someone's sales numbers are terrible.

Marlene Chism:

You don't say.

Marlene Chism:

Okay, my intention for this meeting is to talk about why your sales suck.

Marlene Chism:

know, we don't do that.

Marlene Chism:

We say, look, my intention for this meeting is to help is to find ways to

Marlene Chism:

help you elevate your sales because we're speaking to the outcome from a

Marlene Chism:

positive perspective, not to the sharp.

Marlene Chism:

It's between the island and the boat.

Marlene Chism:

We're not speaking about the problem.

Marlene Chism:

We're speaking about the outcome.

Marlene Chism:

when I said, I'd love to meet with you today for the purpose of talking

Marlene Chism:

about elevating our team, our teamwork and what I've observed is that when

Marlene Chism:

there's a couple of people that when they speak, you either interrupt

Marlene Chism:

or say something very sarcastic.

Marlene Chism:

For example, the other day, that now what I want you to understand that I'm here.

Marlene Chism:

To support you to help you grow what I don't want is you to think you're the only

Marlene Chism:

one or that I'm just making you the bad guy, but this is how this is affecting

Marlene Chism:

the team and then that's how you lay out the first part of the conversation.

Marlene Chism:

then, when you say, so walk me through what's going on for you

Marlene Chism:

when this happens, and they said, I just don't think it's fair that

Marlene Chism:

let me tell you what I understand.

Marlene Chism:

It's not fair.

Marlene Chism:

But the question was walk me through.

Marlene Chism:

What provokes you to, I think you're just picking on me.

Marlene Chism:

And you're just making this a big deal when it's really not that.

Marlene Chism:

No, I understand.

Marlene Chism:

You think it, but I'm asking you a really serious question.

Marlene Chism:

Walk me through.

Marlene Chism:

You see what I'm saying?

Marlene Chism:

Because you are going back to the question that you've asked and

Marlene Chism:

you're not going out here going, I don't care if you think it's fair.

Marlene Chism:

I don't think it's fair that you're beating people up.

Marlene Chism:

Now you're, it's not going to get you anywhere.

Dallas Burnett:

Oh, that's so true.

Dallas Burnett:

And I, and I don't know, I just think that's a, this is a fantastic approach.

Dallas Burnett:

And I think that, when we're engaging in those difficult conversations, we're,

Dallas Burnett:

I think, especially for people who are.

Dallas Burnett:

Obviously are uncomfortable going into it.

Dallas Burnett:

If you have a leader, like we talked about avoiding earlier and you're like,

Dallas Burnett:

Oh, I really am not looking forward to having this difficult conversation.

Dallas Burnett:

I think one thing that you're saying that should be very encouraging to

Dallas Burnett:

everybody listening Is that we don't have to make it more difficult than it is.

Dallas Burnett:

If we just focus on behavior and outcome, because those are things that

Dallas Burnett:

are within our control or at least our intention, and so I can share that

Dallas Burnett:

behavior and I can say, it's our intent.

Dallas Burnett:

To have this outcome.

Dallas Burnett:

Is that your intent?

Dallas Burnett:

It is.

Dallas Burnett:

Okay.

Dallas Burnett:

This is how the behavior doesn't equal this outcome.

Dallas Burnett:

And now it's a plus B equals C conversation and everybody can do

Dallas Burnett:

algebra and that doesn't seem very intimidating, but having all these

Dallas Burnett:

motions really do, and so I think, man, I think it's, I love that approach.

Dallas Burnett:

I love it.

Dallas Burnett:

I love

Marlene Chism:

It's and it's really a skill.

Marlene Chism:

it takes a little bit to learn.

Marlene Chism:

And if you're like, oh, I can't take it.

Marlene Chism:

This takes a long should it take this long to learn?

Marlene Chism:

Yeah, it does.

Marlene Chism:

Because you reprogramming yourself.

Marlene Chism:

But once you learn it, it's like sharpening the saw and

Marlene Chism:

then each skill stands alone.

Marlene Chism:

So that the performance, Coaching model that I created was based on this

Marlene Chism:

framework that you've either inherited a problem that you let go on for too

Marlene Chism:

long after you inherited it, or you never approached it in the 1st place.

Marlene Chism:

therefore, it's a.

Marlene Chism:

It's a difficult place to start because you were part of the problem.

Marlene Chism:

Once you actually do this longer conversation and we're back on the same

Marlene Chism:

page and we set up another meeting for accountability and there's certain skills

Marlene Chism:

or certain processes or certain ways that we need to check in once you've

Marlene Chism:

done that and your real purpose was to elevate them or to get to the truth of

Marlene Chism:

the matter, which the truth may they've not liked the job for a long time.

Marlene Chism:

And they both you both realize it's not the right fit, which is fine.

Marlene Chism:

Because you're leaving as far as you can go.

Marlene Chism:

Friends, but let's say they do have the skills and aptitude.

Marlene Chism:

They just needed a course correction.

Marlene Chism:

They needed some attention.

Marlene Chism:

You're back on track with their accountability in the future.

Marlene Chism:

It's not a long run.

Marlene Chism:

My purpose for this.

Marlene Chism:

It's not like that anymore.

Marlene Chism:

It's hey, I noticed that you or it's hey, what I want.

Marlene Chism:

But I don't want, it's just you're using the skills over and over to

Marlene Chism:

get right to the point versus come to the office today at two o'clock

Marlene Chism:

my intention for this conversation.

Marlene Chism:

Like you're not doing that every time.

Marlene Chism:

You're not doing that because you won't.

Marlene Chism:

You don't have time for

Dallas Burnett:

no, you don't have time for that.

Dallas Burnett:

Yeah, no, I love that.

Dallas Burnett:

That's really good.

Dallas Burnett:

So I have a question.

Dallas Burnett:

if someone is in the avoiding, we've talked about the aggressive and

Dallas Burnett:

the P, aggressive and appeasing, but if someone is in the avoiding.

Dallas Burnett:

Camp and as it relates to conflict and difficult conversations, what is, what

Dallas Burnett:

are things that people can do to move to a place of courage to having courage?

Dallas Burnett:

it speaks to your title, but if I want to move from being a person

Dallas Burnett:

who's like total avoidance to a person that has courage and conflict, how,

Dallas Burnett:

what's that process look like for me?

Marlene Chism:

You have to be willing to be uncomfortable.

Marlene Chism:

That's really the bottom line.

Marlene Chism:

And be uncomfortable just a little at a time until you expand.

Marlene Chism:

I call it expanding your conflict capacity.

Marlene Chism:

if you're committed to comfort.

Marlene Chism:

Then you're never going to get it.

Marlene Chism:

And I understand that people have been traumatized and people have programming.

Marlene Chism:

I really do.

Marlene Chism:

And I'm not a psychologist.

Marlene Chism:

unless it's been severe trauma, which, if it is, you probably

Marlene Chism:

wouldn't be in a leadership position.

Marlene Chism:

Anyway, but we've all had some things that happened to us and

Marlene Chism:

programming that makes us scared.

Marlene Chism:

the bottom line is, you don't like how it feels and You're in resistance.

Marlene Chism:

I want to share something about resistance because I think

Marlene Chism:

this will be real important.

Marlene Chism:

So the reason people avoid mostly is not due to skills.

Marlene Chism:

If it is, if you get the skills and you're still avoiding, the skills can

Marlene Chism:

take off, it could shave off four or five points of stress because you feel

Marlene Chism:

confident and you've got a pattern and a way to start and you might mess

Marlene Chism:

up, but you're excited to use it.

Marlene Chism:

If you've practiced and you know the theory, And you're still really

Marlene Chism:

scared to death just to even correct one thing or to make one criticism.

Marlene Chism:

It's because of how you're thinking for some, you're thinking that

Marlene Chism:

you're hurting someone's feelings versus helping them improve.

Marlene Chism:

It's like staying in a marriage and pretending you're happy because you

Marlene Chism:

don't want to hurt their feelings.

Marlene Chism:

But the truth is you don't have a real relationship.

Marlene Chism:

So you've got to want.

Marlene Chism:

For their betterment and your betterment more than you want to

Marlene Chism:

be comfortable and so when you look at it from that perspective, you

Marlene Chism:

say, comfort's not a requirement.

Marlene Chism:

And so when we talk about resistance, and I'm just do

Marlene Chism:

lots of programs on resistance.

Marlene Chism:

In fact, I'm going to be having a program that this just on resistance.

Marlene Chism:

It's an online course, because I think people need this.

Marlene Chism:

The understanding is that there's 3.

Marlene Chism:

There's three layers of resistance.

Marlene Chism:

So the first kind of resistance is if you're an avoider, you're like, you

Marlene Chism:

avoid, I just don't want to do it.

Marlene Chism:

I hate it.

Marlene Chism:

It feels bad.

Marlene Chism:

I'm, I know that about myself.

Marlene Chism:

Let's say, I think I've bettered myself in that way though.

Marlene Chism:

I'm willing to be uncomfortable.

Marlene Chism:

So now I'm looking at their resistance.

Marlene Chism:

Okay.

Marlene Chism:

They're defensive.

Marlene Chism:

They're sarcastic.

Marlene Chism:

They're going to blame me.

Marlene Chism:

They're going to get me derailed.

Marlene Chism:

And I know what they're going to say.

Marlene Chism:

So I know that they're negativity.

Marlene Chism:

I know that is a level of resistance.

Marlene Chism:

What we think that we're resistant because of that, but here's

Marlene Chism:

what we're really resistant.

Marlene Chism:

I call it level three resisting their resistance.

Marlene Chism:

So if someone's if I know what they're going to say if i'm coaching someone

Marlene Chism:

they go, okay, You just don't understand.

Marlene Chism:

I already know what they're going to say.

Marlene Chism:

I'll say Are you willing to have the conversation anyway, even though

Marlene Chism:

you know what they're going to say?

Marlene Chism:

they might cry.

Marlene Chism:

I understand.

Marlene Chism:

They might cry.

Marlene Chism:

Are you willing to have the conversation even though they might cry?

Marlene Chism:

I might feel really embarrassed.

Marlene Chism:

I understand.

Marlene Chism:

Would you be willing to feel some embarrassment in order to try?

Dallas Burnett:

It's,

Dallas Burnett:

it's

Dallas Burnett:

the desire not to have someone resist you.

Dallas Burnett:

It's not even the fact that it's literally, I'm saying I'm resisting

Dallas Burnett:

someone else who might resist me because of the fact they would resist me.

Dallas Burnett:

That's what you're talking about.

Dallas Burnett:

And you're going, okay, again, your objection dies with agreement.

Dallas Burnett:

You're reverse in reverse.

Dallas Burnett:

You're saying, Hey, look.

Dallas Burnett:

I agree with you that I, but would you do it anyway,

Marlene Chism:

yeah,

Marlene Chism:

go, go, go test it out.

Marlene Chism:

Call me back and tell me what they said.

Marlene Chism:

Go do it.

Marlene Chism:

Go try it.

Marlene Chism:

because really the reason that they're showing up the way they do is because

Marlene Chism:

you always show up the way you do.

Marlene Chism:

So you're part of that.

Marlene Chism:

If you change the way you do it, they automatically have a different

Marlene Chism:

energy and response just because the pattern shifted just by you doing it.

Marlene Chism:

I always say, It's always three layers down and it's never about

Marlene Chism:

the first thing you think it is.

Marlene Chism:

So what I call, willingness is the fulcrum point of change.

Marlene Chism:

In other words, nothing happens until there's a state of willingness.

Marlene Chism:

So if you think that it's because they're not willing, the truth is you're not

Marlene Chism:

willing to have them not be willing.

Marlene Chism:

That's really the truth.

Marlene Chism:

It's just, are you willing?

Marlene Chism:

And so I call that the magic phrase, would you be willing?

Marlene Chism:

And if someone says.

Marlene Chism:

Yeah, someone says, you're coaching someone, you say, would you be willing

Marlene Chism:

to, would you be willing to work on second shift next week to train with Mike?

Marlene Chism:

If someone says, no, I'm not willing, that's not necessarily resistance.

Marlene Chism:

That's clear that he's not going to do it, but there's

Marlene Chism:

consequences with that clarity.

Dallas Burnett:

Sure.

Dallas Burnett:

Yeah.

Dallas Burnett:

He's it's a trade off.

Dallas Burnett:

It's okay, fine.

Marlene Chism:

You can't work here, but you still have a choice, but your

Marlene Chism:

choice is going to have a consequence.

Marlene Chism:

So it's I can say, would you be willing?

Marlene Chism:

And willingness is the fulcrum point of change.

Marlene Chism:

But if I won't even ask them to be willing, I'm the bottleneck, not them.

Dallas Burnett:

that's right.

Dallas Burnett:

and here's the thing, if that person has the choice and they choose to go

Dallas Burnett:

and work that and train, then it makes it less likely, or at least less,

Dallas Burnett:

reasonable that they would sit there and just bemoan it the whole time or not

Dallas Burnett:

go in and do it because they chose it.

Dallas Burnett:

It was their choice.

Dallas Burnett:

Now, as a leader or manager, I'm going to say, Hey, go and work this.

Dallas Burnett:

Then all of a sudden it's man, he made me do, I don't even,

Dallas Burnett:

I didn't even want to be here.

Dallas Burnett:

and you've taken that choice away from them.

Dallas Burnett:

What you've done is you've seeded, an opportunity for them to, have

Dallas Burnett:

Harbor, feelings of bitterness or, a grudge or whatever, because

Dallas Burnett:

they didn't have the choice.

Dallas Burnett:

So I love that.

Dallas Burnett:

I love the, because it also gives them, you can, there's no

Dallas Burnett:

difference in the consequences.

Dallas Burnett:

there's no difference in the trade off.

Dallas Burnett:

The trade off is still the trade off.

Dallas Burnett:

It's just, they have a perception and I would say the reality of a choice.

Dallas Burnett:

Whereas the other way they perceive, they don't have a choice, even though they do.

Dallas Burnett:

so I love that.

Dallas Burnett:

I really love that.

Dallas Burnett:

So let me ask you this in your career, as you made the jump from, where you

Dallas Burnett:

were in your career and to this special, like new area of consulting and speaking

Dallas Burnett:

and writing, has there been anyone that.

Dallas Burnett:

Was a great mentor for you that you felt like you leaned on and really

Dallas Burnett:

you looked at and said, this is this, either this person is I'm looking to

Dallas Burnett:

as a model, or this was an individual in my life that really helped me

Dallas Burnett:

navigate some of these waters.

Marlene Chism:

Gosh, I've never thought about that in depth because there

Marlene Chism:

wasn't just like one person that I studied under and I mentored under.

Marlene Chism:

I've got several little examples of people that either encouraged me

Marlene Chism:

or gave me an opportunity, although they were small opportunities.

Marlene Chism:

It was still just the next right step.

Marlene Chism:

I do remember, in my master's, whenever I was a little bit stuck, because

Marlene Chism:

I, business was flailing because I just didn't know what I was doing.

Marlene Chism:

It didn't have business savvy at that time.

Marlene Chism:

And I'm like, I don't want to be nonproductive because I've quit a job now.

Marlene Chism:

I can't just sit around and hope the good fairy brings me a client.

Marlene Chism:

I'm like, what can I do?

Marlene Chism:

What can I do?

Marlene Chism:

So I start going and get my master's degree.

Marlene Chism:

And this, I would say this was just, it was not like great mentoring, but it

Marlene Chism:

was a great thing that connected for me.

Marlene Chism:

when, I was like, I don't know, this is expensive.

Marlene Chism:

I'm paying for out of my own pocket and I'm not making money.

Marlene Chism:

I quit this job.

Marlene Chism:

It's oh, I'm in this weird place.

Marlene Chism:

This one professor said, you need to stick this out and you

Marlene Chism:

need to get your master's degree.

Marlene Chism:

Of course, everybody that's in education thinks that's the only path, right?

Marlene Chism:

it's not that's how he said.

Marlene Chism:

You need to like, get your PhD.

Marlene Chism:

Just keep going.

Marlene Chism:

Get a second one.

Marlene Chism:

That'll do it.

Marlene Chism:

but he's get your do your masters because it'll pay off.

Marlene Chism:

I'm like, how's it going to pay off?

Marlene Chism:

Really?

Marlene Chism:

And he said, Because you'll do a research project at the end, and that's

Marlene Chism:

gonna, it's called a capstone and that capstone can lay the foundation

Marlene Chism:

for everything you're going to do.

Marlene Chism:

And it can be like Stephen Covey.

Marlene Chism:

And I thought, not only do I not understand what capstone means, and do

Marlene Chism:

I think I'm smart enough to do research or focused enough, but he's saying

Marlene Chism:

something that could be something to it.

Marlene Chism:

So I think I'll just keep going.

Marlene Chism:

And I did, and that did become a foundation because

Marlene Chism:

I studied workplace drama.

Marlene Chism:

But the reason I studied that is because I had learned about this tool called

Marlene Chism:

the Karpman Drama Triangle, and it's a big component in a lot of my work.

Marlene Chism:

And so when I learned about the victim, the persecutor and the

Marlene Chism:

rescuer, I used that word to talk about interactions in the workplace,

Marlene Chism:

and then that became my research.

Marlene Chism:

So it's been threaded through the whole time.

Dallas Burnett:

gosh.

Dallas Burnett:

I am familiar with the drama triangle.

Dallas Burnett:

I've, I have seen that before.

Dallas Burnett:

So that is so fascinating.

Dallas Burnett:

It's so cool.

Dallas Burnett:

Isn't it wild how little conversations like that can make such a huge

Dallas Burnett:

impact on the trajectory of, of career in life, man, that's awesome.

Marlene Chism:

well, and also I was talking about this.

Marlene Chism:

I think you'll enjoy this.

Marlene Chism:

I was talking about this with a friend of mine the other day.

Marlene Chism:

This is so distant.

Marlene Chism:

It's really almost hard to remember and I want to give people credit that gave me

Marlene Chism:

that choice and that chance, but sometimes you're just in your drama so much.

Marlene Chism:

You don't even know when it is a choice or a chance.

Marlene Chism:

You're just trying You know, survive climbing the mud hill, but there was

Marlene Chism:

a guy that worked out there where I worked and he was, he was a trainer.

Marlene Chism:

maybe he was a safety trainer or maybe he was a trainer.

Marlene Chism:

I can't remember.

Marlene Chism:

But his name is Ken Marshall and I hadn't even quit.

Marlene Chism:

I was 3 or 4 years away from quitting and I remember talking to him and

Marlene Chism:

saying, I'd love to do what you do.

Marlene Chism:

It looks really, it looks fun.

Marlene Chism:

I think I like to teach and just motivational to train and.

Marlene Chism:

He actually said, I'll tell you what, I'm doing a training out at

Marlene Chism:

this manufacturing plant next week.

Marlene Chism:

Why don't you just build a little 30 minutes?

Marlene Chism:

Something and I'll let you do it.

Marlene Chism:

that's pretty amazing.

Marlene Chism:

When I think about that, because I didn't know how to dress.

Marlene Chism:

I think when he showed up to pick me up, I maybe had shorts on.

Marlene Chism:

It's I didn't know.

Marlene Chism:

I didn't know anyway, so I compare that with someone else that work there.

Marlene Chism:

That was in HR that did some trainings and I went to him and

Marlene Chism:

I said, I'm just struggling.

Marlene Chism:

I know I've got more to offer, but see, they don't see you as anything more than

Marlene Chism:

what you currently are because they don't.

Marlene Chism:

It's not that world.

Marlene Chism:

Right?

Marlene Chism:

That world isn't a world.

Marlene Chism:

Be in a trajectory, but and I never even heard about career path.

Marlene Chism:

I didn't even know what that meant.

Marlene Chism:

I didn't even know what that meant.

Marlene Chism:

So I go to him and I say, I just love to do what you do.

Marlene Chism:

And here was his stance.

Marlene Chism:

You think this is easy.

Marlene Chism:

You're sitting back thinking you could do what I can do.

Marlene Chism:

You don't know what all I do every day.

Marlene Chism:

I'm just saying it looks fun.

Marlene Chism:

It's not just fun.

Marlene Chism:

I work hard and I'm like, okay, and it's it was really discouraging.

Marlene Chism:

So that's how I know when someone's enlightened because there's people

Marlene Chism:

honestly that call me and I get it like, they're like, hey, could

Marlene Chism:

you tell me how to write a book or how to start a speaking crew?

Marlene Chism:

I'm like, oh, my God, that's saying I'm in the middle of the ocean,

Marlene Chism:

which way to shore, and so when you don't know, you don't know,

Marlene Chism:

you don't know, you don't know.

Marlene Chism:

It looks like I just made this happen.

Marlene Chism:

Like you looked at this photograph of me, like in 20, the year 2000, and now

Marlene Chism:

you look at it like, how'd that happen?

Marlene Chism:

Wow.

Marlene Chism:

There's three pictures in here.

Marlene Chism:

No, my gosh, there's albums.

Dallas Burnett:

exactly right.

Dallas Burnett:

You have no idea what goes underneath when you start peeling the layers.

Dallas Burnett:

It's amazing.

Dallas Burnett:

The amount of effort and it's somebody's I think I'll do that tomorrow.

Dallas Burnett:

Next week.

Dallas Burnett:

Can you tell me how it is?

Dallas Burnett:

no, this is not how that works.

Marlene Chism:

what I love about young people.

Marlene Chism:

I've had people say, Oh, my God, I'm so excited.

Marlene Chism:

I'm starting a YouTube channel.

Marlene Chism:

I'm starting a podcast.

Marlene Chism:

And then when I see it, their 1st 1 is amazing.

Marlene Chism:

Come to find out it took him 4 weeks to do it.

Marlene Chism:

And I hired people to help him.

Marlene Chism:

I'm like, okay, this isn't sustainable.

Marlene Chism:

you think this is what it takes.

Dallas Burnett:

It's so good.

Dallas Burnett:

It is so true because there's so much, I think, to pressure for young

Dallas Burnett:

entrepreneurs, young leaders to have it right out of the gate because

Dallas Burnett:

they, there's so much proliferation of this, Whatever perfect is right.

Dallas Burnett:

and the social media has been not getting used to, you just have to wait till the

Dallas Burnett:

next month that, fortune Forbes Ryan, Ink magazine comes out and I didn't

Dallas Burnett:

get it every second on social media.

Dallas Burnett:

So I think that just the barrage of this is what I have to be and

Dallas Burnett:

look like to achieve success.

Dallas Burnett:

I think it's really stolen a lot of what you've talked about

Dallas Burnett:

earlier is authenticity from young leaders and also, completely.

Dallas Burnett:

Misses the set, like the expectations on what the grind is really about, you know?

Dallas Burnett:

And

Marlene Chism:

Well, and truly,

Dallas Burnett:

about.

Marlene Chism:

I think it's confusing to everyone.

Marlene Chism:

I mean, every now and then I'm thinking, should I get a cat and

Marlene Chism:

a turtle and put it on YouTube?

Marlene Chism:

Or should I be shuffle dancing?

Marlene Chism:

what am I supposed to be doing?

Marlene Chism:

It's this person, they got the knowledge and the wisdom of Job

Marlene Chism:

and Aristotle, and they're 20.

Marlene Chism:

How are they doing that?

Marlene Chism:

I don't know how they're doing it.

Marlene Chism:

that's pretty amazing to me, and it can be confusing at any age.

Marlene Chism:

or, oh my God, they've got five kids.

Marlene Chism:

50, 000 followers and they've got a cat and a turtle and apparently

Marlene Chism:

they're making money from that,

Dallas Burnett:

is.

Dallas Burnett:

And that's, and I'm not knocking anyone that can go and start it.

Dallas Burnett:

And neither are you know, starting the YouTube channel is great.

Dallas Burnett:

But I would say that for most people, it is a process and engaging that's

Dallas Burnett:

the journey and that's the fun part.

Dallas Burnett:

And so I really appreciate it because as we go through that, we're going

Dallas Burnett:

to meet people that are for us.

Dallas Burnett:

Some that are against us, some that are going to help us and give us a hand up.

Dallas Burnett:

and some that are not, and you've, we're going to experience

Dallas Burnett:

conflict along the way.

Dallas Burnett:

And I cannot tell you how awesome our conversation has been.

Dallas Burnett:

You've talked about the three life trajectories and had some

Dallas Burnett:

great questions about that.

Dallas Burnett:

you've given us some, information about, how to release that resistance.

Dallas Burnett:

And we've talked about, the three A's it's just, you have just covered the

Dallas Burnett:

gamut, the inner game, the outer game.

Dallas Burnett:

We have had the best conversation.

Dallas Burnett:

We had two things and we'll close it up.

Dallas Burnett:

One is, what would you tell a young leader that is just starting out as

Dallas Burnett:

they're coming into, maybe they're just new into their role in leadership.

Dallas Burnett:

What would, what advice would you give them?

Dallas Burnett:

And then the last thing is we always ask the guests on the last 10%, who they would

Dallas Burnett:

like to hear as a guest on the last 10%.

Dallas Burnett:

So I'll let you roll that.

Marlene Chism:

Okay I'd say Live by this that in all drama There's always a lack of

Marlene Chism:

clarity the one with clarity navigates the ship and clarity can change any situation

Marlene Chism:

So if all you think of is clarity can change any situation, then in every

Marlene Chism:

conflict, you'll understand that there's somewhere where someone is not clear

Marlene Chism:

and clarity will change the situation.

Marlene Chism:

I live by that with coaching people that are just beyond brilliant.

Marlene Chism:

And I used to think, oh, I'm just not smart enough to help them.

Marlene Chism:

And I'd be like, I'm not supposed to be smart like them.

Marlene Chism:

They know what they know.

Marlene Chism:

And that's what they're supposed to do.

Marlene Chism:

My job is to help them get clear about all the things.

Marlene Chism:

Things going on in their mind, so clarity can change you.

Marlene Chism:

You won't be able to do everything that everyone does that you're leading.

Marlene Chism:

you won't be as hard as them in certain ways, but you can help them maintain

Marlene Chism:

and get clarity on what they need to do.

Marlene Chism:

that would be and what was the

Dallas Burnett:

that.

Dallas Burnett:

The last one is who would you like to hear as a guest on the last

Marlene Chism:

I love Ben Hardy.

Marlene Chism:

He's just really smart.

Marlene Chism:

And he's very, he's big now.

Marlene Chism:

He's really big and very busy.

Marlene Chism:

I love Daniel Priestly, and he's great for entrepreneurs and, he's just really,

Marlene Chism:

really smart., but there's just so many.

Dallas Burnett:

no.

Dallas Burnett:

Those are two great ones.

Dallas Burnett:

I love it.

Dallas Burnett:

I love it.

Dallas Burnett:

Marlene, this has just been a pleasure.

Dallas Burnett:

It has been fun.

Dallas Burnett:

And I'm so thankful that you, you're here.

Dallas Burnett:

Got to come on the last 10 percent and how can people get in touch with you?

Dallas Burnett:

If they want to order a book, take a LinkedIn course, what's the best ways

Dallas Burnett:

that people get in touch with you?

Marlene Chism:

Yeah, you can, Marlene Chisholm, marlene at marlenechisholm.

Marlene Chism:

com is my website.

Marlene Chism:

There's some resources and things to sign up for.

Marlene Chism:

I'm also on LinkedIn, so if you want to say you heard me on this show, you can

Marlene Chism:

go on there and follow me or connect with me and mention this show as well.

Marlene Chism:

And so you can find me on LinkedIn real easy and also my website.

Dallas Burnett:

Awesome.

Dallas Burnett:

We'll put all of that in the show notes.

Dallas Burnett:

So if you're driving, don't worry, we got you covered and thank you again, Marlene.

Dallas Burnett:

And we just, we look forward to, maybe having you back

Dallas Burnett:

on the show again sometime.

Dallas Burnett:

That'd be great.

Marlene Chism:

Thanks for having me.

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About the Podcast

The Last 10%
Inspiring People, Coaching Teams, and Improving Cultures
Join The Last 10% for incredible conversations that help uncover the secrets of what it takes to finish well and finish strong. Our guests share their journeys, hardships, and valuable advice. We release new episodes every other Tuesday. If you are a leader, a coach, a business owner, or someone looking to level up, you are in the right place!

You can give 90% effort and make it a long way. But it’s the finding out how to unlock the last 10% that makes all the difference in your life, your relationships, and your work.

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Dallas Burnett